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"Axis & Allies-ing" F & E ?
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domingojs23
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Joined: 30 May 2010
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Location: Geneva CH / Manila RP

PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 8:27 am    Post subject: "Axis & Allies-ing" F & E ? Reply with quote

Dear SVC and Friends,

Has there been any thought to producing a line of smaller miniatures for F & E (and the envisioned Federation Admiral), something along the lines of what you have for "Axis and Allies" ?

Of course it would be impractical to have miniatures for all vessel types, but perhaps we could have an archtype for each vessel family, with a maximum of 4-5 types per Empire.

If ADB would be interested, I could look into relatively lower cost manufacturing options in the Philippines (my day job as a diplomat for the Philippines involves business promotion !).

Cheers,

Gary
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Steve Cole
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I very much want to have "toys" for Klingon Invasion, the FC-ish version of F&E. I haven't found a practical way to manufacture them that doesn't involve producing a minimum run of about 10 times the average sales of any product we do. I continue to work on it.
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domingojs23
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear SVC,

I may be able to offer low-number and reasonable cost production runs of the "toys" - please PM me with the envisioned needs for this project, so I can begin developing a serious proposal.

Thanks !

Gary
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mjwest
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Joined: 08 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve can't get to PMs. Please send email instead. And don't send the email until after Origins.
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Steve Cole
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't design something and then ask for manufacturing data.

I get the manufacturing data and design what can be done.

Back in the old days, all books had to be multiples of 16 pages. (It actually cost more to do less, or you included blank pages.) If I did not know that, and designed an 18-page book, it would be very expensive to make and impossible to redesign to fit 16. If I knew before i designed it that it had to fix 16, I'd make it fit 16.

So I need to know what you're talkign aobut doing, and how many of what size thing fits a standard manufacturing machine, and the minimum run.
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domingojs23
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahhh ! The manufacturing / design chicken and egg conundrum Laughing Ok I will send ADB a proposal soonest...
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SFU_FEAR
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We had thought of using ScoutDads minis and one of the exihibit halls at Origins and paint the map on the floor with 2 foot hexes. Very Happy
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Scoutdad
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SFU_FEAR wrote:
We had thought of using ScoutDads minis and one of the exihibit halls at Origins and paint the map on the floor with 2 foot hexes. Very Happy

I'm game, but you'll have to convince ScoutMom to let us bring her minivan also, or there will not be enough cargo capacity for them all. Shocked
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Bolo_MK_XL
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'm game, but you'll have to convince ScoutMom to let us bring her minivan also, or there will not be enough cargo capacity for them all.


Won't you need a Hazmat license to transport all that lead -- easier to get an EPA trailer than ask her for the keys ---
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Scoutdad
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bolo_MK_XL wrote:
Quote:
I'm game, but you'll have to convince ScoutMom to let us bring her minivan also, or there will not be enough cargo capacity for them all.


Won't you need a Hazmat license to transport all that lead -- easier to get an EPA trailer than ask her for the keys ---


Hmm... good point. I wonder if the EPA / Superfund clause in my home-owners insurance applies to my collection if it's temporarily "on our"?
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Sweeper
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speaking for myself, (and I am unanimous in this), I wouldn't mind seeing some Starship minis done in the same way Catalyst Game Labs made the 24 mechs they included in their best selling Introductory Box Set. they're made from a semi flexible plastic that's really hard to break. Turns out that long time players would buy 2 or even 3 copies just for the minis.

This could be best-seller, especially as it can be used for SFB, FC, and Armada.

One could also make minis for ground forces if SFMA takes off.

The only downside I see is ADB having to some far outsourcing (China) to produce them.
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Scoutdad
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sweeper wrote:
Speaking for myself, (and I am unanimous in this), I wouldn't mind seeing some Starship minis done in the same way Catalyst Game Labs made the 24 mechs they included in their best selling Introductory Box Set. they're made from a semi flexible plastic that's really hard to break. Turns out that long time players would buy 2 or even 3 copies just for the minis...

Now... just what kind of miniature mad fanatic would purchase more than one copy of the Catalyst version of Battletech to get extras of those minis? Rolling Eyes

BTW... at Origins '09, one could buy the Catalyst boxed set for 1/2 price! Wink
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Sweeper
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scoutdad wrote:

Now... just what kind of miniature mad fanatic would purchase more than one copy of the Catalyst version of Battletech to get extras of those minis? Rolling Eyes


Gee, who indeed? Could it be the guy who has an entire web photo-pages devoted to Minis? Wink
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Norsehound
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Would we really need plastic minis/toys for a F&E lite to take off? Personally I don't mind hex and counter- it's the sheer amount of units, rules density and long set-up times that really impede me from enjoying F&E. I have the game but can never play it because of these factors.

Wasn't there the idea of a F&E version of Federation Commander being kicked around? That's something I'd like to see. I'd gladly trade away the nuances of historical accuracy in the General War for the sake of expedient gameplay.
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Norsehound
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well... I peeked over at the old discussion board for the topics on an F&E Lite or "Beer & Pretzels" version of this game. Since none of them have been updated since 2007 (with most of the discussion happening in '03), I think I can see those threads as effectively dead.

But I want to post this someplace where they might have some relevance, even if more F&E players are over there than over here.

Basically I found myself re-writing the F&E rules into something... I dunno, "cleaner". F&E has been a daunting game not only for the density of the rules, but for the amount of steps in a procedure needed to complete something. Percentages, fractions, minor key decisions that only veteran players would roll through quickly while neophytes would either use incorrectly or spend hours trying to understand the concepts.

I'm aware SVC wants to tackle this on his own and is not accepting input for this product. But because I want to have a Strategic game based in the SFU, I've generated some thoughts on my own and have some proposals for anyone who cares to read them.

---------------------------

Objective:
This would be a strategic version of SFU, without bending over backward to represent every nuance and incident of the General War. The point is to make the turn as fast and easy to get through as possible with a minimum steps in order to do something. "Conditions" as rules are perhaps acceptable, since it may be easier to remember what one can and cannot do, rather than a series of steps to accomplish something.

Ships:
For the beginning and basic set of F&E Redone, there would only be a handful of ship classes per side. Basically FF, DD, CA, BC, DN, and an optional BB. Carriers, carrier groups, special operations ships, are all out and reserved for a future product to expand upon them. Hydrans are the only exception in this regard, and their fighters are more or less treated as a separate factor from the base combat value of the ship (perhaps sacrificed as damage instead of the ship itself, as well as adding combat value?)

Combat:
I have no thoughts on this one in re-writing yet, but I feel the whole system needs to be chucked. If you're going to be "retreating" before a battle, why are you attacking in the first place? Bases should be treated as bigger vessels, perhaps able to absorb thirty points of 'damage' or something before being destroyed. Ultimately combat should be resolved in one or two rolls, with as little hindrance to arriving at a resolution as possible.

Repairs:
There are no repairs or salvages; ships either exist or they are destroyed. Fighters may be replaced, but this is the only way to 'replenish' a vessel.

Economics:
I have no problem with adding up territories and the points they contain to arrive at a "total EP", which is then spent as currency during the turn. Modifying the EP total for Peace/LmWar/FullWar is an optional rule that players can add in to help simulate the General War.

The supply grid remains, but should instead be counted as "player territory" and could possibly help determine victory conditions. Ships in supply (basically 6 hexes away from any point of supply) fight at full strength. Partial grids only add something like 1 to the player's total for every source in the cut-off network.

Like Axis and Allies, a universal track showing total EP intake would be tremendously helpful in a base set. This would also be the place where Capital Hexes and what they contain would be marked.

Tugs:
These do not carry pods, one presumes the Tugs are already carrying the supplies they need. Basically they can do one of two things: Build/Modify a base, or act as a supply point. If they are attacked they stop what they are doing and any EPs used on whatever they were doing is lost (and any ships depending on them for supply go unsupplied next turn). In summary they are the "engineering ships" of the F&E:R base set.

Production:
No seasonal restriction on production- players can buy and build whatever they want to for that turn to use in that turn from the pool of available EPs at the beginning of the turn. Battleships are available, but they would follow the B10 rules and are a "rolling expense" between turns (much like bases are).

Romulan KR series:
Basically a Klink player can sell an existing ship or buy the cost for an existing ship, and then sell it to the Romulans next turn who only have to pay for a conversion cost to use it. This is an optional rule, it could be that in the base set the Klingon just concedes permission for the Romulan to build the KR series at base cost.

Balance:
I don't doubt that the setup situations have to be re-balanced from F&E. Either dictate a starting setup for every player (Fed players have so many cruisers and frigates, etx) or dictate an allowance of combat factors a player can deploy on to the board in the pre-game setup.

In any case, every race would have unique combat values for each of their ships balanced against the cost of producing them. One race's frigates may be cheaper to build than another's, but the firepower total might be lesser.

-------------------------

I have not played F&E beyond attempts at solitaire, nor have I had any assistance in trying to learn. All I perceive is a wonderfully crafted game bogged down by complex and comprehensive loophole-sealing rules and with a sea of counters to bog down setup time. I would like to have a game with as much strategic scope as F&E, though streamlined and with complexity available as an option, not as a mandate, from the beginning. I believe this is SVC's objective as well, though I can only imagine how he intends to approach it... or when.

Thank you for reading.
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