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The Blockade of Gamma Episilon III
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Mike
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 9:22 pm    Post subject: The Blockade of Gamma Episilon III Reply with quote

This may seem a little strange, but I have a few questions and observations about the scenario, "The Blockade of Gamma Epsilon III" in Communique 62.


First the questions for whoever designed the planetary engagement part of the scenario and the FTS ship card that was in Communique 62.

1. There is nothing written about whether Federation Marines can attack Klingon colonists on the planet. Can we assume this cannot happen, or even if it does, that it doesn't matter?

Why ask this? The Klingons get 2 victory points for every unit of colonists landed on the planet. Do the Klingons get the victory points for simply getting the colonists to the planet or do they get the victory points for having the units of colonists on the planet at the end of Turn #10?

If they get the points for simply landing the colonists, then it doesn't matter what happens to the colonists once they land on the planet. They can be killed by Fed Marines or by direct-fire from space (though Feds would probably never do something barbaric like that).

2. Does the squadron scale FTS have all ten of its cargo boxes filled with the equipment for the colonists? The mission objective for the Klingons is to land at least two cargo boxes of supplies on the planet. Each box of cargo supplies landed is worth ten victory points to the Klingons. If they have more than just two of these on the FTS, can they land more for more victory points?

3. Is the squadron scale FTS supposed to have only 30 Marine boxes? The ship card shows 60, but in Special Rule 8CM50d1 it states, "The 30 'Marine' units on the small troop transport are not Marines, but colonists." This makes it sound as if there are only 30 Marine boxes on the ship because there is no other reference to how many colonists are on the FTS. Perhaps this was in reference to Fleet scale? Or does it have 60 Marine boxes, but 30 are colonists and the rest are empty?

4. Can a ship that is landed on a planet be tractored? If so, can it be pulled off the planet and into space? [If the Fed player can't tractor the FTS while it is landed on the planet and tow it into space, all the FTS has to do is land on the planet and the scenario is over.]

5. Can a ship declare emergency evacuation to a habitable planet and thereby move its entire crew to that planet? [Do you see where this is leading? The FTS might be able to transfer some of its cargo and then use this tactic to transfer all of the colonists...the colonists alone would be worth more victory points than the ship.]

Observations:

1. If using the Feds as the scenario is written, the only seeking weapon the Feds can launch at the FTS is suicide shuttles. In the Middle Years era when this scenario takes place the Feds do not have drone launchers on their ships (at least on the DDM and FF in this scenario).

2. While transporters can move 1 unit of colonists per turn, they can only ferry 1/5 of a box of cargo per turn.

3. Cargo can be offloaded if the FTS is landed on the planet at a rate of 1/2 box per turn because a landed ship is treated as "docked" for purposes of cargo transfer. If the units of colonists are treated like Marine squads for transport purposes as stated in 8CM50d1, then six units of colonists should be able to be transferred to the planet for each Turn that the FTS is landed.

4. There appear to be only two ways for the Feds to win. Either destroy or do significant damage to the FTS with the four suicide shuttles they have available OR tractor the FTS and pull it away from the planet so it cannot transfer colonists and/or cargo.
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JimDauphinais
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have the same questions as Mike has above.
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Dal Downing
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:25 pm    Post subject: Re: The Blockade of Gamma Episilon III Reply with quote

Ok, not the writer and anything I say be fully aware that MJW may come in here and say no to.

Mike wrote:
First the questions for whoever designed the planetary engagement part of the scenario and the FTS ship card that was in Communique 62.

1. There is nothing written about whether Federation Marines can attack Klingon colonists on the planet. Can we assume this cannot happen, or even if it does, that it doesn't matter?

Why ask this? The Klingons get 2 victory points for every unit of colonists landed on the planet. Do the Klingons get the victory points for simply getting the colonists to the planet or do they get the victory points for having the units of colonists on the planet at the end of Turn #10?

If they get the points for simply landing the colonists, then it doesn't matter what happens to the colonists once they land on the planet. They can be killed by Fed Marines or by direct-fire from space (though Feds would probably never do something barbaric like that)..


Not in the rules but I am pretty sure that the Organians are going to take a pretty dim view if Federation Armed Forces "attacked" peaceful Klingon Colonist. So you can not eliminate the colonist to erase victory conditions because the Klingons will provide proof to the Organians of a unprovoked "Federation Massacre" of its citizens.

Mike wrote:
2. Does the squadron scale FTS have all ten of its cargo boxes filled with the equipment for the colonists? The mission objective for the Klingons is to land at least two cargo boxes of supplies on the planet. Each box of cargo supplies landed is worth ten victory points to the Klingons. If they have more than just two of these on the FTS, can they land more for more victory points?.


Once again not explicitly called out, but yes I am fairly certain that you can assume that all ten of its Cargo Boxes are indeed filled with the equipment needed to establish a viable colony. Further more I am pretty sure a Scenario Specific Rule barring the FTS from landing on the planet should/will be added. In SFB Freighters could not land on planets so I am sure when the Mike wrote the scenario he was still thinking that was true. However in this case, some note, to the effect of, "due to the incredibly old age and structural instability of this FTS," it can not land on the planet and must deliver all colonist and cargo by either transporters or shuttles.

Mike wrote:
3. Is the squadron scale FTS supposed to have only 30 Marine boxes? The ship card shows 60, but in Special Rule 8CM50d1 it states, "The 30 'Marine' units on the small troop transport are not Marines, but colonists." This makes it sound as if there are only 30 Marine boxes on the ship because there is no other reference to how many colonists are on the FTS. Perhaps this was in reference to Fleet scale? Or does it have 60 Marine boxes, but 30 are colonists and the rest are empty?.


I am almost positive that is correct at 30 Colonist which are not the same as 30 Marines. Once again In SFB where Crew Units are tracked (But not so in FC) a Crew Unit consist of 10 to 12 individuals where a Boarding Party (Read as Marines in FC) only consist of 5 or 6 individuals. The reason you can only beam 5 marines over in the same space that 10 Crewman fit into falls under things like Armor, Weapons, and other Equipment take up space as well.

Mike wrote:
4. Can a ship that is landed on a planet be tractored? If so, can it be pulled off the planet and into space? [If the Fed player can't tractor the FTS while it is landed on the planet and tow it into space, all the FTS has to do is land on the planet and the scenario is over.].


MJW will have to rule on that one but nothing in the rules prevents it. But, once again I am sure a Scenario Specific Rule will be added that states the FTS can not land on the planet.

Mike wrote:
5. Can a ship declare emergency evacuation to a habitable planet and thereby move its entire crew to that planet? [Do you see where this is leading? The FTS might be able to transfer some of its cargo and then use this tactic to transfer all of the colonists...the colonists alone would be worth more victory points than the ship.]
.


MJW will have to rule, but, I am almost positive after reading 5E7 that the rule pretty clearly states there must be Transporters on both the sending and receiving ships for you to use this. Since the Planet does not have at least one working Transporter you can't do this.

Mike wrote:
Observations:

1. If using the Feds as the scenario is written, the only seeking weapon the Feds can launch at the FTS is suicide shuttles. In the Middle Years era when this scenario takes place the Feds do not have drone launchers on their ships (at least on the DDM and FF in this scenario)..


This note is in here because of (8CM50e) 1. Alternative Empires

Mike wrote:
2. While transporters can move 1 unit of colonists per turn, they can only ferry 1/5 of a box of cargo per turn.


Don't forget 5F2c since there appears to be no Marines on board the FTS why could you not just capture the freighter?
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Mike
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd like to hear from someone who playtested the aspect of the scenario that includes the planet.

As to the "old age" of the FTS, since this is Middle Years, how old could it be?
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Hod K'el
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. Ummm, who said you had to kill the Klingon Colonist to get them off the planet? Do you not have transporters?

2. How would you have loaded the ship? How would you have been ordered to load this ship? How long are they going to be here without provisions? How about shelter? How about weapons? How about clothes? How about medicine? House Rule: Designate each cargo box load out for more realistic results.

3. 30 Marines are Marines and 30 Marines are colonists for a total of 60. Matches card.

4. No. Just send it to stovakor.

5. Just because YOU declare an emergency evacuation does not mean that your second in command will not execute you for acting in such a cowardly manner. I would disallow this action.
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Dal Downing
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike wrote:
I'd like to hear from someone who playtested the aspect of the scenario that includes the planet.

As to the "old age" of the FTS, since this is Middle Years, how old could it be?


Over 150 years old if it was a SubLight Troop Ship that has been upgraded over the years.
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terryoc
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
1. There is nothing written about whether Federation Marines can attack Klingon colonists on the planet.

If there's no enabling rule, then no they can't. Technically, they aren't marine squads. This would also seem to violate the spirit of the scenario (not killing colonists if you can avoid it).

Quote:
2. Does the squadron scale FTS have all ten of its cargo boxes filled with the equipment for the colonists? ... If they have more than just two of these on the FTS, can they land more for more victory points?

I'd say the answers are "Yes", and "Yes". It states this explicitly. Two boxes minimum to win, ten points per box landed (no limit is mentioned).

3
Quote:
. Is the squadron scale FTS supposed to have only 30 Marine boxes?

Looks like a typo.

Quote:
4. Can a ship that is landed on a planet be tractored?

Hmm, I don't see any rule saying it cannot, but then you have to fight a tractor auction, and a landed ship would have a lot of power available, and then there's the other two ships to think about.

Quote:
5. Can a ship declare emergency evacuation to a habitable planet

No. If you read the emer evac rules, it's clear that it must be between two ships.

Quote:
Observations:

1. If using the Feds as the scenario is written, the only seeking weapon the Feds can launch at the FTS is suicide shuttles. In the Middle Years era when this scenario takes place the Feds do not have drone launchers on their ships (at least on the DDM and FF in this scenario).


Yup. Mind you, a couple of suicide shuttles can ruin the freighter pretty badly. If it drops a shield to use transporters and eats a couple of big suicide shuttles, it could easily go "boom".

Quote:
2. While transporters can move 1 unit of colonists per turn, they can only ferry 1/5 of a box of cargo per turn.

Yes. Shuttles can be used to carry cargo too however.

Quote:
3. Cargo can be offloaded if the FTS is landed on the planet at a rate of 1/2 box per turn because a landed ship is treated as "docked" for purposes of cargo transfer. If the units of colonists are treated like Marine squads for transport purposes as stated in 8CM50d1, then six units of colonists should be able to be transferred to the planet for each Turn that the FTS is landed.

Yes, that's correct. Plus transporters as well, and any transporters on the escort ships.

Quote:
4. There appear to be only two ways for the Feds to win. Either destroy or do significant damage to the FTS with the four suicide shuttles they have available OR tractor the FTS and pull it away from the planet so it cannot transfer colonists and/or cargo.


Sounds about right.

Hod K'el wrote:
1. Ummm, who said you had to kill the Klingon Colonist to get them off the planet? Do you not have transporters?


You may not use transporters on personnel against their owner's will.
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JimDauphinais
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Part of the issue with 30 colonists is whether that is the same number for colonists for both Squadron and Fleet scale. If so, it significantly changes the scenario between Squadron and Fleet scale since the remaining VPs that can be earned in the scenario will be a twice as high in Squadron scale versus Fleet scale.
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Steve Cole
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Read that as "ALL" of the marines on the troop ship are colonists.

Klingon Colonists cannot be attacked or transported by the Feds.

All of the cargo is colonial gear. Land as much as you can.

Squadron scale has twice as many as fleet scale.

Really not sure about tractoring a landed ship. The staff is reviewing that. It's never come up.

Not really sure about emergency evac to a habitable planet. Staff will review this.
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Dan Ibekwe
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If there are no marines on the FTS the Feds could board and capture it (presumably leading to a battle for possession with marines beamed aboard from the Klingon escorts).
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 4:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, you can evacuate a ship to a habitable planet. Kinda a rude way to win, and should probably be listed as not an option in the special rules. You do lose all of the cargo, though, as that would not be transported, too.
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Mike
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I knew it!

MJWest, was the evac clarification one you just made, or has it been around for awhile? I thought sure I had heard that before. It didn't make sense that emer. evac. could only occur between ships, esp. if the evac-ing ship had a usable transporter.

The other main one I'm waiting for is about whether a ship landed on a planet can be tractored and pulled off the planet. My initial thinking is "No" because ships can't be dragged into planets by tractors (something about the atmosphere messing with the tractor lock or whatever). However, if this is the case it might make for an easier Klink win in this particular rendition of this scenario.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To the best of my knowledge, no one has ever asked either question before.

On the tractor issue, I can tell you that a ship cannot be yanked off a planet or slammed into it. The big issue is if we want to allow objects (including ships) to be raised or lowered to a planet's surface within a scenario. (This can always be done outside a scenario, the question is if we want it within a scenario.) If it is allowed, then the tractoring ship will probably have to be Stopped for the duration of the raising/lowering. However, no decisions have yet been made.
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Kang
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it was for a specific scenario, then it would follow that you would make up the rules for use only within that scenario i.e. a special scenario rule.

Given that, you could then impose your own limitations or conditions: Ship must be stopped or moving no faster than 0+1; double power required to overcome the planet's gravitational field, etc.

[Edit]: Of course, once you set a precedent, worms may begin to escape from the can... Wink
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

on the tractor planet thing....

SFB uses "tractor rotations" which FC doesn't have.

Raising and lowering base modules, cargo pods, and so forth has to be possible, but maybe not during a scenario.

Kinda cheesy to say that if you're on a planet you're exempt from being yanked, but that may be the simplest solution.

We're continuing to review it.
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