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Hiding in a corner
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duxvolantis
Lieutenant SG


Joined: 16 Nov 2010
Posts: 185

PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mjwest wrote:
Two points on speed limits:
1) Steve has already said, "No."
2) This is actually worse than SFB.

Worse than SFB? Unless I misread the proposal (limited to declaring a base speed one category higher than the previous turn) it is equivalent or slightly more generous depending on the circumstance.

SFB acceleration limit is double or +10 whichever was greater.

Without getting into the complexity of Mid-turn speed changes, to go max speed in SFB you have to go speed 16 the turn before which let you accelerate to 31. Under this proposal you have to go a minimum of speed 16 (declare baseline 16 and not accelerate) to go max speed of 32 (declare baseline 24 and go 24+1 every impulse).

And this is more generous as you can go from 8 movement points to a max speed of 24 (declare 16 and go 16+1 the entire turn) or go 0 and accelerate to, effectively, 16 (bl 8 going 8+1 the entire turn).

In SFB your respective caps would have been 8 to 18 and 0 to 10.

Of course there is no useful rebuttal for point 1. Razz
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Dux Volantis
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gar1138
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 345
Location: Eugene, OR

PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mjwest wrote:
Two points on speed limits:
1) Steve has already said, "No."
2) This is actually worse than SFB.

1) Yep, although I do strongly think that some parts of the game are unbalanced because of it. I also think that as new tactics and play styles have emerged, that decision should be revisited (and perhaps not everything was full considered when that decision was first made). However, I won't actively bring it up unless it is borne out of other discussions (such as the tactic on this thread).

2) Actually, it is slightly better than SFB.
From a dead stop in SFB, your maximum speeds each turn is 10, 20, 31
From a dead stop in FC with speed limits, your maximum effective speeds each turn would be 16 (8+1), 24 (16+1), 32 (24+1).

I'm certainly not trying to start a new debate, I just feel compelled to correct any misconceptions.

Thanks,

Garrett
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mjwest
Commodore


Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 3476
Location: Dallas, Texas

PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guys,

Please move the speed limit discussion to a different thread. It should not take over mojo's discussion on a completely different subject. I will refrain from any speed limit comments in this discussion.
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duxvolantis
Lieutenant SG


Joined: 16 Nov 2010
Posts: 185

PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mjwest wrote:
Guys,

Please move the speed limit discussion to a different thread. It should not take over mojo's discussion on a completely different subject. I will refrain from any speed limit comments in this discussion.

Noted.

Now to take try and do my part to put this thread back on track:

What possible exploitable disadvantages do people see to the sit-in-the-corner strategy?

I don't see very many, to be honest. The races best able to take advantage are plasma and disruptor but they won't be able to cross the distance and unload in time.

I will say that if I see that my opponent is sitting in the corner I *will* use any excess energy (not btty) to accelerate and move as close (as comfortable) to them. I do this not for any specific reason but rather on the general principle that I have thereby placed myself in the best position to seize the initiative and control the center of the board and have preserved the maximum amount of room to maneuver as possible.

In a plasma ship I will also do so in the hope that he makes a mistake and plots 16 under the assumption that we are getting really close. I don't really expect or count on that mistake, but I want to be close enough to punish him for it if it happens.
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Dux Volantis
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Mike
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Joined: 07 May 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So if the "corner sitter" is overloading photons you will get closer to him so he will not have to use as much energy to get to range 4 on you?
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storeylf
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Joined: 24 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thats not how I read the post. Close, pen him in the corner and if he is daft enough to think he needs less energy to close as a result then give him a good slapping. That was my reading.
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duxvolantis
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Joined: 16 Nov 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike wrote:
So if the "corner sitter" is overloading photons you will get closer to him so he will not have to use as much energy to get to range 4 on you?

Close is a relative term.

I can be well past the center of the map and still be safely outside overload range.
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Dux Volantis
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duxvolantis
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

storeylf wrote:
Thats not how I read the post. Close, pen him in the corner and if he is daft enough to think he needs less energy to close as a result then give him a good slapping. That was my reading.

Yes.

Again. Not likely against a good player, but even if he does plot 24+1 and roars out of the corner I now have the entire map to maneuver.
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schoon9953
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Joined: 12 Nov 2010
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Location: Oakland, CA

PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I acknowledge that sitting in the corner is a completely valid tactic with a fixed map, I've always found it personally distasteful in that it takes advantage of an aberration in the rules rather than how our fictional vessels might "actually fight."

I think that releasing the fixed board as a house rule generally takes care of this at my table.
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Bolo_MK_XL
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Joined: 16 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pretty interesting the fighting ranges in SFB/FC, when you actually listen when battles occur on the TV Shows, you hear them read out ranges of KMs/100s of meters (or racial equivalent) --
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Mike
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speaking of hearing actual distances being read out on the TV shows, I remember the first Borg show in TNG and this happening. The Ent-D pulls up to what looks like "range=0" in FC/SFB and someone on the bridge says they have stopped moving at a range of 40,000 kilometers. A little hand-wavium and some viewscreen magnification will do wonders to make FC/SFB fit with what you see most of the time.

It is still just a game, though.
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Patrick Doyle
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Joined: 18 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Pat Doyle Maneuver: I'm so, so honored. I didn't know I had a maneuver named after me (sniff sniff)...I'd like to thank my mom and dad and my...... Very Happy

First a little background:
Here is why the Tournament start-up is the way it is:
1. The decision was based on Rules prior to Version6 rules. In the earlier version, Plasma could not be fully loaded on Turn 1. There was no way to have our G/S/R torps ready. V6 changes that.
2. The starting positions of the SFB tounament were about 32 hexes apart. Paul Scott and I played more than ten games testing plasma and they (Roms and Gorn) always got murdered when the SFB position was used. I don't think a plasma player ever won a game that we played. They still lost when starting in the corner but at least it wasn't outright murder. They at least had the chance to feel like they were doing well before they lost.
Personally, If I want to win, I won't take plasma into a competitive game. They just aren't very good.* Gorns are hopeless.
3. The decision was made to start in corners. The distance lets the players influence the range at which they enter combat on turn 2.
4. We were under instructions not alter the game's rules for tournament, so the only thing we could control was the starting position.
5. Basically, this lets everyone come in with weapons ready. How far you move out of the corner on turn one depends on who you are and who you are fighting. If you choose to sit in the corner and go evasive, I mean, perform the Doyle Manuever, then you have to live with the consequences of that decision on turn 2.

If you are playing a scenario, or campaign, nothing says you have to start under tournament conditions. For a campaign or pick up game, do whatever makes it fun for you.

The Tactical Considerations for how to move on turn one in a tournmanet:
How fast will you go, and how fast do you estimate your enemy will go?At what range do you want to engage the enemy next turn, and in what impulse do you want to engage him?

Also, do you have drones that you want to launch on turn 1, impulse 8. If so you better get to a range of at least 25 hexes. In tournament plpay I found on more than one occasion that the Kzinti player did not get to range 25, so I had a lot less drones to deal with on turn 2. That made all the difference!

* The old Romulan ships with R torps can be a threat. R-Torps are still dangerous. Unlike SFB, the War Eagles and other old style ships can go fast if need be for a short duration. They can also efficiently use their cloak. Newer Romulan ships are in the same category as Gorns. (IMNSHO).
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