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What Can Beat the Orion Light Raider for the Points?
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Kang
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Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 1966
Location: Devon, UK

PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wolverin61 wrote:
Hmm, I thought it was 'six' Wink

Always worth checking there first! Very Happy
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Kang
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Location: Devon, UK

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another point with the 3xplasma-F loadout for the LR is that he doesn't need to launch them all at once. Because there's three of them, he can launch one per turn on a rolling cycle, virtually forcing the opponent to maintain high speed (with its concomitant power shortages) all the time.

I agree that the Tholian DD, with his Web snares, decent shields and excellent main battery (the phasers, not the power system!), does indeed provide a good option agains the Orion ship. However, as has already been noted for that ship, power is always going to be a problem when running fast. Does the ship need to run so fast if the Snares are going to bag the torps? Not necessarily, but there's always the initiative/choosing the range concerns to think about.

This is an interesting problem. The many strengths of the LR include: its total power and speed cost, weapon loadout and arcs, good shields and excellent maneuverability, its stealth bonus and its disproportionate repair capacity. Its only weakness as far as I can see is its internal damage capacity, but even that's not too bad when compared to similar point-value ships. Perhaps the reload cost for the plas-F's, once they have all been expended, are going to be a little high, but one would expect that the expenditure of all the torps in one turn was performed at a significantly high chance of scoring decisive damage. Certainly the LR would be weaker when reloading, but hey, he's go the power to do it if he hypes his engines.

This would mean retiring temporarily while reloading; how's about this for a Tholian idea off the top of my head: would the T-DD be able to make a mini-web in the time while the LR is reloading?

The LDR-FF would be a good idea in that the ESG isn't affected by the stealth bonus, but then if you have got in that close then the plasmas may well have done something nasty - although the P-G's will hopefully have told against the plasma. To use the ESG like this, the FF will need to keep the range open during Tn1 in order to charge up the ESG properly.

Another idea that nobody has seemed to mention yet is the Hydran Lancer (without fighters). I reckon that too could make for an interesting scrap. Your main problem is going to be closing the range.... so why not just let the LR come to you? A stern chase would be three P-1s hitting the LN's #1 shield, vs. the single P-1 to return fire on the LR. Not good.

One final point - any hit/run raids against the LR should be directed against power-generating systems. Losing some of those will make a big difference.
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pinecone
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In general, I'd say to target power systems when attacking. Try to do enough damage so he can't repair it and the warp overload, even with the 4 repair points. eventually he will have to stop doubling his power or he will run out of power.
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Kang
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Joined: 23 Sep 2007
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Location: Devon, UK

PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pinecone wrote:
In general, I'd say to target power systems when attacking. Try to do enough damage so he can't repair it and the warp overload, even with the 4 repair points. eventually he will have to stop doubling his power or he will run out of power.

Yeah, always target power anyway. http://www.starfleetgames.com/federation/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=2543

And welcome back Piney, haven't seen ya for a while, how've you been?
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pinecone
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Joined: 03 May 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been well, thanks Smile I've been a bit bogged down lately, but I try to check in every now and then. I had some issues with friends and parents for awhile, but for the most part it's been worked out. I want very much to get back into the FC swing of things now Smile

And I want to thank you. It's very encouraging to come back and still be recognized Very Happy you made my day!
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storeylf
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Joined: 24 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kang wrote:
pinecone wrote:
In general, I'd say to target power systems when attacking. Try to do enough damage so he can't repair it and the warp overload, even with the 4 repair points. eventually he will have to stop doubling his power or he will run out of power.

Yeah, always target power anyway. http://www.starfleetgames.com/federation/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=2543

And welcome back Piney, haven't seen ya for a while, how've you been?


Couple of points about targetting.

I'd disagree with always target power. Whilst the other post correctly points out that power targetting has a greater chance of hitting a power OR weapon on a burnthrough, the post is however only talking about burnthrough scenarios. That doesn't mean 'always' target power over weapons. Presumably you meant if you are expecting to do no more than a burnthrough?

Be wary of targeting on the LR - it is a prettty fragile ship and you can lose damage points quite quickly, even 2 internals on a pristine LR can result in a lost damage point if you roll a 3. That doesn't mean don't do it, just be aware of what can happen.

Whilst it is situational, targeting weapons has a subtle advantage, a weapon costs 4 DC whereas a power is 3 DC. In a long drawn out fight where the LR is taking just a couple of internals or a burthrough each turn then the Weapon damage will slow down the LR repair, instead of repairing a power and a hull he can only repair a weapon, nor can he repair the power and start on a second power. Targetting weapons does 6% more DC damage on average (than targetting power) at 1 damage, 12% more if you do 2 damage and 14% more at 3 damage.

For the above reason I would also argue against aiming at power on a burthrough IF the LR is already damaged (from engine doubling or not), If you do a power damage and and he already has an engine damage then he can repair one and start on the other, if you aim at weapons he has a choice to make, if he repairs power he is down a ph1 which is a pretty significant drop in fire power coming at you at this level of ship, if he repairs the weapon he can't start on the power. If that goes on a for a few turns then he actually accumulates damage faster.



In non burnthrough situations you should look at what helps most.

For example if you are firing at the end of the turn at a fairly close range and are still likely to be at close range the following impulse, and expect to do a few internals, I'd aim for weapons. Taking out phaser-torp-phaser (and another phaser at 7 damage) means that as the following turn rolls over the LR will be down at least 2 of those weapons even after DC. That noticeably reduces the firepower coming back at you on the next impulse. Taking out a few power points however would probably still leave you taking the full whack back. That goes doubly so if you just used 2 turn weapons, as you will be at a firepower disadvantage anyway on the following impulse, no point taking out a few power if you are going to end up worse any way.

Hit and run raids were noted earlier, I'd disagree with what was said there as well, by definition a shield is down and you are at close range, that would imply we have gone beyond the slow death by a thousand cuts style of game and are entering the final stretch. Look at the situation you are both in and where you are in the turn before just targetting power. If taking out another weapon (or 2) will allow you to follow up safely the following turn then go for weapons over power. If you are not likley to be able follow up for the kill then give particular attention to whacking plasmas that are armed or partially armed, even if he repairs them he will have to start re-arming, and if you can avoid carronades that leaves him little choice but to spend 3 turns arming and need a lot of power on turn 3. Also, again a weapon is 4 DC and is therefore stretching the LR repairrs capabilitiies a bit more.



PS I had also been wondering where you were Piney, hope everyone/everything is ok now.
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Kang
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Joined: 23 Sep 2007
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Location: Devon, UK

PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good points Storeylf, the other post is indeed about burnthrough. You'd have thought that the original author of that 'tactic' would have remembered that Sad

Returning the the original topic for a moment, it has occurred to me that within each 'bracket' of ship values, there will always have to be a 'top dog'. Perhaps the LR is indeed the best value for the points in this bracket, hence perhaps we may well have found the 'top dog'? Albeit a somewhat outstanding one....
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ryanakent
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kang, after getting repeatedly trounced by my son trying to beat the LR, I do beleive it cannot be beat by a similiar point value ship with captains of reasonably similiar skill.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is an interesting match, I might see if my regular opponent wants to try this. We have a load of other stuff planned ahead at the moment but I'd be interested in playing through it a few times.
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pinecone
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

perhaps... maybe a Neo-Tholian destroyer with it's web casters could defeat the LR. It could drain the LR of it's extra energy whilst targeting power and draining it. It would be a long fight, but it could be done, I think... maybe.
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Hod K'el
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 4:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ryanakent wrote:
Kang, after getting repeatedly trounced by my son trying to beat the LR, I do beleive it cannot be beat by a similiar point value ship with captains of reasonably similiar skill.


Then take one yourself and equip it with a PH-G in the nose and PL-D in the wings and have some fun.
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HappyDaze
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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ryanakent wrote:
Kang, after getting repeatedly trounced by my son trying to beat the LR, I do beleive it cannot be beat by a similiar point value ship with captains of reasonably similiar skill.

It's a problem most apparent in the small-medium Orion ships. The Double Raider and Battle Raider really show this imbalance and are very nasty in equal-point battles. Oddly enough, as the Orion ships get larger the point values increase quickly enough that the other races can get enough bang-bang to deal with them better. However, fear the swarm of small-medium Orion ships, especially if they pack PH-1s in every mount.
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Capt Jack
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Point for point, I think nothing can beat the LR consistantly. But If you are up against a player, playing 2 Orion LR you would have a lot more options.

I would try 3 Fed police cutters! Idea

p.s I agree with Hod K'el
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Kang
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've fairly recently submitted a scenario about this very thing. Whether Steve decides to publish it or not is, of course, up to him Smile
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duxvolantis
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 4:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Capt Jack wrote:
Point for point, I think nothing can beat the LR consistantly. But If you are up against a player, playing 2 Orion LR you would have a lot more options.

I would try 3 Fed police cutters! Idea

p.s I agree with Hod K'el


Try the LDR Cheetah.
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