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Storeylf Vs Targ campaign
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IKerensky
Lieutenant SG


Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Posts: 108
Location: blois - France

PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Will the Klingon ever manage to win a game or kill a decent Fed ship ? Looks like they are spiralling downward faster and faster...

Funny to read how the Fed feel that his position is bad or in was in dire situation and escape nearly unscathed with the opposition in cinder. :p
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storeylf
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Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1883

PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The klingons have won battles (or in a campaign its more about achieved objectives, victory is more subjective), and what do you class as decent fed ships? I've lost 2 CAs and a CC. I consider them decent ships. The reason I brought on a CA and CC as new ships is that I prefer them to bigger ships. Though, yes there is a fair chance I might hit campign victory this round or next.

Aye, it is funny how each side keeps seeing doom and destruction facing them pre-battle. The chase scenario being the best example, IMO it was the perfect klingon scenario, whereas the klingons started the game convinced they were at a serious disadvantage.

What I think is being seen is that the nature of the weapons and tactics of the 2 sides just don't favor klingons killing ships in the same way as they do the feds given there is a clear incentive for each side to preserve ships. Disrupters constantly wear you down, but I'm likely to pull away before being blown up, photons do nothing and then they cripple/kill you.

The last game was really going bad for me in the first few turns, my 2 smaller ships had been hammered and I hadn't even hit the klingons, then 'KAPOW' it was all over and the klingons were in full flight. That's photons for you.

The biggest issue the klingons have though is the coordination, or lack thereof, between the 2 players. Not a turn goes by without some 'debate' about what to do. That's bad for them, the difference between the 2 races means the klingons can't afford to make as many mistakes as the Feds.


Last edited by storeylf on Mon May 02, 2011 1:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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storeylf
Fleet Captain


Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1883

PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scores and OOB at end of that round.

Klingons have bought a E7D (drone ship with scout channels) and get an E4
Fed buy a CC and get a FF (* 1.25 for commerce platform loss) and the remaining fighters.

I've 'guessed' at the klingon repairs, as there were enough points to cover everything, so it seemed obvious.

Scores:
Fed = 11485
Klink = 7197

We are getting close to me having twice as many points as the klingons (the win condition).

OOB:
Fed
DN
BC
2 * CC
2 * CA
3 * CL
3 * DD (FRD for repair)
2 * DD
3 * FF
CVS (12 ftrs)


Klingon
C8
D7C
2* D7
E7D
2 * D6 (FRD for repair)
D6
2 * F5
2 * F5 (FRD for repair)
3 * E4
Rom CV (16 ftr)
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Targ
Lieutenant SG


Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Posts: 125
Location: York U.K.

PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

storeylf wrote:
What I think is being seen is that the nature of the weapons and tactics of the 2 sides just don't favor klingons killing ships in the same way as they do the feds given there is a clear incentive for each side to preserve ships. Disrupters constantly wear you down, but I'm likely to pull away before being blown up, photons do nothing and then they cripple/kill you.

The biggest issue the klingons have though is the coordination, or lack thereof, between the 2 players. Not a turn goes by without some 'debate' about what to do. That's bad for them, the difference between the 2 races means the klingons can't afford to make as many mistakes as the Feds.


Totally agree these are the 2 main factors we have been struggling with.
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IKerensky
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Joined: 17 Jan 2011
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Location: blois - France

PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Then, perhaps disengagement rules need to be changed. Something Federationish like : we let no one behind = all federation ships must disengage together or no good state ship could disengage before damaged crippled/ones are disengaged or self-destructed and their crew rescued.
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duxvolantis
Lieutenant SG


Joined: 16 Nov 2010
Posts: 185

PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To beat Feds the Klingons must maneuver and fire in a coordinated fashion.

Maybe the two players could agree to take turns on which one is "in command"? The player in command makes the big decisions (like what speeds, headings, etc) while the other player operates the most ships. Then two players goes from a disadvantage to an advantage (as one player is helping with all the energy allocation and such while the commander is focusing on maneuver and planning moves based on an overall plan).

As for destroying ships as a Klingon, you need to score significant forward shield damage (smaller fights) or meaningful internals (big fights) before allowing the Fed into range 8 or the math doesn't work out in the Klingon's favor.

For example if you take a fight between two D7's and 2 Fed CA's I try to get one or two passes at range 15 before entering overload range.
Two D7's are going to do (slightly pessimistically) 21 points of damage at range 15 while still having 28 points for movement. You always want this on the Fed's #1 shield if at all possible as his alpha is reduced on the oblique and he will have to pursue behind sideslips which will make it easier for you to keep control of the range.

Once the Feds shields are somewhat damaged (and depending on scenario, if I am running out of room) it is time to try and get a closer pass at range 8, preferably at the end of the turn.
I want to force the Fed to choose between:
1) firing his full alpha at range 8
2) holding his weapons and losing some photons in the tube to internals
3) firing the photons he might lose (which will let me split his alpha between shields).

On this pass if he returns fire and does average or better he will have a temporary advantage but one of my rules with disruptor ships is once you are inside overload range you don't ever leave. Arm what is left and close to knife-fighting range and hit him again. You really have to be tenacious at this point and not allow him to run off to rearm. Use every trick in the book (launch drones and hit-and-run the remain point defense, etc). The huge advantage here is that the Fed really has a three-turn arming cycle on photons while deep in a firefight since he can rarely afford to fully overload on the second turn while also fighting off tractors, firing phasers, etc. Also repaired disruptors can be fired immediately which means you can keep 'regenerating' firepower.

Also, do not hesitate to go for a capture on a small Fed ship if the opportunity presents. 2 D7's can place 10 marines per turn which is enough to have a decent chance to capture a DD or FF in 3 turns and is equal to the marine compliment on a Fed CA. Nothing flips a fight faster than a capture on a ship that was previously only somewhat damaged.
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storeylf
Fleet Captain


Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1883

PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IKerensky wrote:
Then, perhaps disengagement rules need to be changed. Something Federationish like : we let no one behind = all federation ships must disengage together or no good state ship could disengage before damaged crippled/ones are disengaged or self-destructed and their crew rescued.


How about any ships, no matter its condtion can stay and fight whilst others get away! that seems pretty Federationy.

I can't remember every battle, but I don't think your rule would have made any difference, I've disengaged en-masse or disengaged damaged ships whilst good ships fight on anyway.

I'm not going to change the disenage rules. The point of the campaign was to start with fairly similar OOBs and play through campaign rounds making our own decisions about whether to run with a ship or stay and take the risks. The differences between 2 races is what makes such campaigns good. Seeing characteristics that don't come out so much in one-off scenarios or tourney games.

The basic premise is that the 2 admirals are under orders to not lose stuff needlessly as this is a quiet front that should not become a drain on resources (hence the limited replacement rules). Requiring one side to stay and fight because 1 ship is to damaged to pull off as a general rule is just a no thank you. Some of the scenarios put one side or the other in a bit of a bind - but it is up to the players to bid for who that should be and make the best of things.

I'll also re-iterate something, up to this last campaign round the klingons still had the same number of ships as the feds, and they had more larger ships. They were not at a disadvantage in ships despite their apparent hammering. The last round was a pretty grim round for them, but that is what you expect - at some point some one gets clobbered.

Klingons were my preference for this campaign as well (I've always seen feds as a bit boring), and I have offered to switch sides. We choose Fed vs Klingon as it seemed to a good classic to try out the basic campaign idea and someone had to go Feds. I do not consider the campaign to be seriously unbalanced in itself. I think it is the inability to coordinate between 2 players that is the bigger problem.

I think the klingons understand the tactics that Dux is pointing out, but pulling it off with other objectives to account for, or terrain, is not always so simple. The larger battles and OOB limits can also make things more difficult - we don't always have equal forces and have to make up to 3 groups with a limited selection of ships. The deliberate choice of the older ships also has consequences - these are not D5s with wide disrupter arcs, just as my ships really miss those few extra points of power, or better phaser arcs, or extra drones. It is these choices and having to deal with the consequences of your choices that have so far made it a good campaign.


We are looking at a similar campaign after this one, but based on the andro invasion. We all get to play races we want then. Jack as his beloved orions allying with Targ (ISC?) to eradicate my andro force from their area of space. That will be interesting - andros are tough, but have much less firepower per point than Feds, so may see me struggling with the crunch deficit next time. That will be late war stuff as well, so better ships for the galatic power.


Last edited by storeylf on Sat May 07, 2011 4:23 pm; edited 2 times in total
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duxvolantis
Lieutenant SG


Joined: 16 Nov 2010
Posts: 185

PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

storeylf wrote:


I think the klingons understand the tactics that Dux is pointing out, but pulling it off with other objectives to account for, or terrain, is not always so simple. The larger battles and OOB limits can also make things more difficult - we don't always have equal forces and have to make up to 3 groups with a limited selection of ships. The deliberate choice of the older ships also has consequences - these are not D5s with wide disrupter arcs, just as my ships really miss those few extra points of power, or better phaser arcs, or extra drones. It is these choices and having to deal with the consequences of your choices that have so far made it a good campaign.


Scenario trumps 'standard operating procedures' for sure. I'm playing Roms in our local campaign and while I think plasma is underpowered I have mauled Feds badly in scenarios when the objectives pretty much forced them to eat plasma.

We are also playing pre-General War which means that most of the ships in play are older designs. Frankly I like the older ships better as they each retain more of the racial strengths and weaknesses than the later ships where everyone has highly optimized designs.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The new round has no odd scenarios come up, 1 convoy and 2 meeting engagements.

The convoy is our newer version, so smaller card chooses sides and is the basic points for the game. The larger card is the cargo value plus 10% of the value is bonus points for the attacker. The defender get 2 large and 2 small frieghters for free. One frieghter can be upgraded to a Q-Ship for free but that ups the cargo value to compensate.


Points bid (Fed/Klink):

Terrain choice = 100/0.

Convoy = 500/100 - klingon chooses to defend
Battle = 800/400 - I put a black hole here.
Battle = 700/200


The klingons put a minimal force in the larger Battle, the minimum is half the points value, so for a 600 pt battle they have to turn up with 300 pts. They also have to stay for 2 turn before disengaging. It look likely they will pull away from that but that will give me some points for being in control of the battle field afterwards at least.

The convoy was more interesting. I bid 500 on the basis that the klingons would go 100 hoping to choose sides. If I was the attacker that would give me a CA vs an F5 (plus Q). If I was the defender it would have meant a FF + Q vs a D7/E7D. The klingons choose defender (hence I was pretty sure there would be a large Q-Ship otherwise I'd easily overrun the convoy). I was slightly surprised, the campaign points are best gained by the attacker, so given the current position in points I thought they'd go the attacker.

The last battle will be a C8, D6, E4 vs a DN and CA. I goofed up a bit here, for some reason I was pointing for 400 pts and not 450 pts. But I'm not to unhappy with the match up.
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storeylf
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Joined: 24 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Convoy Action - we are not finished yet, but so far..

The basic map is 4 panels by 6 panel (large hexes), with the freighter having to get across the 6 panels (54 hexes) to escape. The map size is based on a full on freighter run allowing for escape during turn 3 if they don't deviate or lose power. That puts a time constraint on the attacker, and possibly allows even a smaller escort to delay a raider by enough to allow the convoy to escape. It has so far proven difficult to stop any cargo loss, the scenario is more about preventing total loss.

Turn 1.
My CA comes in half way along a long edge (3 panels in) the convoy starts half way on a short edge. A turn 1 close range exchange is possible, so with limted time I prearm photons for use on turn 1 and go speed 16. speed 24 would leave me to short on power, and speed 16 gets me to the middle of the board at around the point the convoy would be if it went dead ahead. I move up to that potential intercept point without yet accelerating. Annoyingly speed 16 leaves me moving simulatneous with the large freighters, and after the small freighters, Fed manouverability for you!

The klingons engage in a bit of scattering, the F5 turns and runs to the far side, the 2 small freighters slip away a bit and the 2 large freighters slip towards me a bit. Obviously I'm expecting a Q-ship in the large freighter group. I pass across the bows of the large freighters at range 4 towards the end of the turn and my labs spot the Q-Ship. I carry on to the small freighters. I'm not likely to get a good photon shot this turn, but my plan is to phaser a small freighter, which even at range 8 should do internals and aimed at power could leave it almost dead in space. Unfortunately I appear to have a rookie gunner on board, and this turn is the first of several which sees me unable to take out a freighter shield. Forward phasers fire at a small frieghter and fail to get through 5 points of shield, rear phasers fire at the large frieghter and prove equally useless. The Q-Ship rakes one of my rear shields, and the F5 takes one of its few shots of the night to damage another shield slightly, but has turned away from me (thinking he is my target) so it only manages rear phasers.

Turn 2.

The F5 and small freighter have by now turned away from me against the far edge and back the way they came, another small freighter has carried on but also against the far edge. The Q-ship and large FF are behind me somewhere - the Q coming at me, the FF running for home. I carry on ahead at speed 24, enough to keep the F5 panicking then turn to the small FF making the run for home, and at range 1 put in just enough aimed phasers ( 2 Ph1s and 2 Ph3s) to strip it of power boxes, I wait another impulse before launching my drone at it, the delay will guarantee that it comes in on the downed rear shield. Then I start turning round to attack the large Freighter, I'm not going to reach it, but hopfully some phasers at the end of the turn will take out some of its power leaving it stranded as well. The drone catches the small freighter and it just survives blowing up, hanging on by thread. By the end of the turn I have been hit quite hard by the Q-Ship again, and the F5 might have thrown out a tickler of a shot. My 3 rear shields are all looking dubious by now. My shots at the large freighter are another poor volley and yet again freighter shields prove to much for my gunner to take down. Sad


Turn 3.

This turn is quite brutal. Speed 24 is leaving me too drained ofpower so I slow down to 16, I have the Q and F5 closing on me from different directions. The large freighter is not far in front of me, and the intact small freighter has only just managed to pull back round from its run back on turn 1. I'd like to clobber the large freighter, but my shield situation and need to deal with the escorts closing in on me force me to turn on them, or rather try and pull my pig in space around to deal with them. Fortuntaley Jack snatches defeat from the jaws of victory as he shoots his load a bit to early, not scoring much and then turns away and heads to the crippled small freighter to tractor it towards the map egde. So just as I look like I'm getting out manouvered and about to get hammered by both escorts I find myself against just the Q-Ship. I'm still in a somewhat bad position - I need to HET to face him and moving simultaneously means I can't even be sure that will come out right. My photons are only standard loads (I dream of power for overloads). I do, however, manage to execute a point blank attack, and we exchange shots, the Q-Ship drops my front shield and does a handful of itnternals whilst I blast him for over 50 internals. That leaves me with no power for the rest of the turn, but there is little the Q can do. I spend the rest of the turn pulling back around again so that I end the turn facing my disengagment edge for next turn whilst I wait to see what is happenening.

Turn 4.

I'm looking fairly good internally, I've lost 1 power which is repaired and am down a couple of phasers. My shields are a different matter, after rotation I'm looking at 1,3,4 and 5 with about 5 or 6 boxess left each and numbers 2 and 6 looking 'good' with a few damage each. I start rearming 2 photons, and go 16 giving power for weapons and batteries. The Q is struggling, but still has a couple of disrupters and a phaser, and whilst down to less than half starting power, for the klingon Q-ship that is still adequate. The F5 drops the tractor and comes at me. The Q and myself circle with our wide turn arcs, I've decided to stay on and see what else I can achieve - a good phaser volley could see off Jack who doesn't like scratches on his ships. My turning should keep my goodish number 2 at the enemy most of the way through the turn. We eventually exchange shots with the F5 at range 2, on split boudaries. A timely decel has put me in about a good as position as I can get, the split boundary gives me my number 2 to take damage, whilst I have both FH and RH phasers and side phasers bearing on him, he takes that on his front. My number 2 survives with battery assitance whilst I take his front down, just. We both score 1 internal. We then both launch our last drone, but he has an ADD to take out mine, whereas I am out of ADD rounds by now and have to tractor the drone at the end of impulse 8.


That is where we left it. This has been extremely close so far. Jack has been his usual over cautious self which has aided me in this fight (sometimes his caution better suits klingon and the scenario than Targs more aggressive stance), Jack only got aggressive once I was in a bad way. I have 2 photons up this coming turn, The freighters are still up for grabs, but my shields are so knackered that there isn't many ways I can face without being at risk. The klingon escorts are not looking brilliant, but there better shields and arcs compensate for that. It's unlikley I can afford to hang around much longer. I do already have some points in the bag having scored cargo hits on a small freigter and the Q-Ship.
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Capt Jack
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Joined: 12 Mar 2011
Posts: 102
Location: England U.K

PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="storeylf"] Jack who doesn't like scratches on his ships. quote]

I must take issue with statement. If you remember the assasinate mission, I kept 2 ships on the map which were little more than flying drone racks. I would rather leave a ship on, with the possibilty of it being destroyed than take off something badly damaged to early and need it later.

As for the Klingons losing, I am begining to believe that Targ is one or more of the following:

1. Suffering from Space Madness
2. Is in the Pay of the Federation
3. An Android of an unknown power
4. Is in the pay of the Klingon Shipbuilders Union
5. A Romulan 5th coloumist
6. Is a shapeshifting lizard
7. Is from a mirror universe, where losing is the new winning?
8. His ships crews are degraded, but no point decuction, just to give the Feds a chance?

9. Any other ideas?

I have made some bad mistakes myself but they are getting less frequent and less costly.

P.s My signature does say scourge of the dreadnought. It doesn't say whose!
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Last edited by Capt Jack on Mon May 09, 2011 8:37 pm; edited 3 times in total
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is correct, you had flying drones racks, but you didn't like it, especially when you realised the ship your erstwhile ally had disengaged was relatively 'prisitine' Smile

Was that the game where your flying drone racks had no control spaces to launch the drones Laughing
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Capt Jack
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The first comment is correct. The 2nd was not the same game and you know it, Evil or Very Mad Just posting that is enough for formal declaration war! Twisted Evil

As for the klingons losing, I think we would greatly benefit from floating maps or larger maps. But this would mean longer games, and disengagement by distance if sort and possible? This would probably bring other difficulties.
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Capt Jack
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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2011 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

convoy AAR

Turn 5

The FED CA went 24, the freighters went 16, Qship 8 and my F5 16. It was fairly clear at this point that the craven FED were running away.
All ships acclerated the CA moved down towards the Q ship, the F5 hetted and pursued the CA. Freighters moving towards there disingagement edge.

imp2 all but the CA acclerated. The Q-ship and the CA fired at range 1 this almost destroyed the Q-ship doing 24 internals (one more Frame and it would have exploded., Crying or Very sad even one more point of damage Shocked )

imp3 This just really left my F5 to close on the CA, but as hard as I tried he kept his good shield facing me (10point shield!) I fired before he had disengaged, at range 4-5 doing 7points of internals.

The outcome was that we lose a 400 point card next turn for loss of 207 points of cargo.

Fed 8damage CA

It is debatable if we should have gone 8/8+ with the large freighter and let him catch it. But that could have ment he was on the board another turn. We could have lost another 33 cargo boxs and still come out with the same result.

Hope this AAR not too shabby as is my first one!

p.s should this campaign be entitled "Storeylf Vs Targ & Capt Jack or more accuarately "Storeylf Vs Targ VS Capt Jack!"
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JonPerry
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Joined: 12 Jul 2010
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Remember all those short stories in the Captain's Logs, the ones featuring multiple Klingon commanders? The constant sniping and bickering and insults and downright insubordination, with each captain sure that he can do better than his foolish superior?

Hmm.

Not sure what made me think of those stories.

Anyhow, I have really enjoyed these accounts. I hope to kick my gaming group into starting this exact type of campaign, hopefully as soon as early July. Have around 14 cards in the mission deck so far. I fear we won't get our battles in as quickly as you guys do. We don't meet quite as often and don't seem to play quite as fast, but that is okay. As opposed to your homogenous starting forces, we are going to have a small Romulan contingent fighting alongside the Klinks, and a squadron of Kzintis and Gorns fighting alongside the main Federation elements. Mostly because we've got the miniatures, and don't want to see them go to waste.
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