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mojo jojo
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 23 Jun 2009
Posts: 340

PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2011 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One interesting idea might be to nix the current point handicap system completely. Have each round have randomly matched empires. Then both sides bid on which empire they want and what handicap they are willing to give up to get that side. It's a hidden bid that both sides reveal at once.

Let's say there's a Gorn/Hydran matchup. Both sides think Hydran is favored. One person bids Hydran 10% and the other bids Hydran 5%. The person with the higher bid gets Hydrans and must pay 10% more for his ships. The other person gets Gorn with no handicap. If both sides pick opposite sides, then they each get their side and each give up their handicap. So if one side bids H10% and the other bids G3%, then the Hydran bidder gets Hydrans and pays 10% more per ship and the Gorn bidder gets Gorn and pays 3% more per ship. If you absolutely don't want to give up a handicap, you bid your side at 0%.

A matchup can be a completely random pick by the TD, or the players can each select 1 empire to throw into the mix.

In this handicap system, balance is almost by definition enforced. It rewards the higher skilled player who knows how to play multiple empires and understands different matchups.
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storeylf
Fleet Captain


Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1836

PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2011 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok - that makes a slight difference. Your fleet has 4 Pl-S.

Quote:
Turn 2 I move 24, he moves 8, but again cancels all but one of his moves. He launches 4 S, 4 F and fires some phasers. I evade the torps. Near the end of the turn, he launches a total of 6 Suicide Shuttles.


So it appeared you had fired all your Pl-S and only had 2 Fs left (plus a 2 turner at a pinch).

It still looks like pile in slipping past the shuttles. If you spread the plasma then just eat it and hit you with all 4 ships at range 0 and 1, if you concentrate the plasma then that ship (or 2) can back out with a HET and the others attack - leaving the hydran with 1 (or 2) fresh ships next turn against whatever gorns survive, plus whatever of the 'pile in' ships are left. The Gorn really only have the firepower to take out 1 mohawk (if that) if the plasma has been fired at a target that has then retreated. If you haven't concentrated plasma and face all 4 ships then you face oblivion there and then. So it really doesn't matter how you split your fire, the gorn position is dire.

At range 0 a single Mohawk has ~29% chance of killing a HDD (without any overloads, and in theory the hydran can fire everything plus have 2 fusions on overload whilst doing speed 24). 2 Mohawks are looking very good at a dead DN (~73% chance witout overloads). Even if they don't die, those gorns are hanging on by the last bridge type of thing.

Some where in there is 2 stingers following in as well.

Even allowing for having to defensive fire a couple of shuttles, or an accel to bypass them I can't see why the hydran ran.

I did forget the carronades earlier, which gives you some extra firepower from currently loading tubes, but not enough to make much difference.

If you had fired an early Pl-S then it looks even better on the final run.

At any rate. I don't see anything that you did with shuttles that makes me think they need an adjustment.


PS - I realise deciding things mid battle when you are not quite sure what the other guy is going to do is a different kettle of fish.
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The_Rock
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 16 Jul 2008
Posts: 240

PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2011 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lee,
It was a risk calculation, nothing more. It was possible that I could have engaged on T3. I made a call to feint an engagement to draw plasma (He had a total possible of 2 S and 3 F (1 FL R torp), (it drew an S torp) and then to turn off the fleet to see if he would fire phasers before I left Range 5 and then again Range 8. He didn't, so I left.

I think it was possible to engage him even with the 14 shuttles out there, but it was also fairly risky.

I obviously cannot engage both him and the shuttles, so engaging means ignoring the shuttles. Given the speeds of everyone, there is no chance of gaining separation from his ships and his shuttles, so I had few options if I wanted to force and engagement. In the end, I would come out of the engagement worse than him IF: I engaged, he was able to phaser 1 ship and tractor one or two others for the SSs. If I could get in past the shuttles and hit his ships at range 2 (or R0-1 and either destroy the ship or destroy the tractors on the ship), then that was a clear win for me.

In the end, the main issue was I did not see a reason to put so much at risk against a completely passive player when the game's outcome was certain if I just delayed. If his fleet is moving or if his fleet does not have a hoard of SS sitting there, it is of no threat to me at all.

Without the very short turn limit, this sort of completely defensive tactic is not a viable option anyway, so I don't think we'll have much more discussion of it in the future.
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ericphillips
Commander


Joined: 16 Apr 2009
Posts: 702
Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA, Sol, Gould Belt, Orion Arm, Milky Way Galaxy, Local Group, Universe Beta

PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2011 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For this tourney I say the outcome was fair. The rules were known before hand by both sides. It is not uncommon in sports like Hockey or Soccer to play for ties late in the game. Each of these games is one battle to winning the overall war.

In the future I think the turn limit should be made larger... it just isn't fair to plasma races with their long reload times.

Perhaps some kind of "sudden death" mode would be helpful. Perhaps after 8 turns, multi turn arming weapons could be fast loaded (like X-ships), or they swap out for phasers or something. Any ideas?
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JimDauphinais
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Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Posts: 754
Location: Chesterfield, MO

PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Turn 2 I move 24, he moves 8, but again cancels all but one of his moves. He launches 4 S, 4 F and fires some phasers.


Quote:
So it appeared you had fired all your Pl-S and only had 2 Fs left (plus a 2 turner at a pinch).



Just for the record, I only fired 2 x S on Turn 2, not 4 x S. So, at the start of Turn 3 I had available 2 x S and 2 x F. I also had an R with two turns of loading and of course I could carronade the 4 remaining F tubes. My total squadron capability at game start was 1 x R, 4 x S and 6 x F.
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Jim Dauphinais, Chesterfield, MO

St. Louis Area Fed Comm Group: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/STL_Federation_Commander/


Last edited by JimDauphinais on Sun May 15, 2011 12:55 am; edited 1 time in total
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JimDauphinais
Commander


Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Posts: 754
Location: Chesterfield, MO

PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Perhaps some kind of "sudden death" mode would be helpful. Perhaps after 8 turns, multi turn arming weapons could be fast loaded (like X-ships), or they swap out for phasers or something. Any ideas?


I don't think we need to bother. The more I think about it the more I have come around to believing 10 turns will be fine with the possible addition of Patrick's ideas in regard to reducing the minimum VP accumulation for being awarded a win and adding some graduations to the VP calculations such as 25% and 75% of ship VP awards.

Quote:
In the future I think the turn limit should be made larger... it just isn't fair to plasma races with their long reload times.


I did not find that to be an issue at all with six turns and the ability to fire the big tubes on Turn 1. This said, it would be intereting to find out if VulcanDropout (who played the Romulans) feels the same as I do in this regard.
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Jim Dauphinais, Chesterfield, MO

St. Louis Area Fed Comm Group: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/STL_Federation_Commander/
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The_Rock
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 16 Jul 2008
Posts: 240

PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If we are going to 10 turns, all will be fine, I think. Can I also suggest changing the staring locations back to 1701/2530. The reason they are in the corners is because in 2007 Patrick and I lobbied hard to change them because back then plasma could not even have their torps armed on turn 1. This put them at a huge disadvantage (in addition to the disadvantage they have from just being plasma) since they had no choice but to corner dive turn 1 and arm up torps.

With Rule Rev. 6, that is no longer necessary, so there is really no need for turn 1 to be completely a wasted turn anymore.
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JimDauphinais
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Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Posts: 754
Location: Chesterfield, MO

PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 4:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That would be a 33 hex range start versus the current 45 hex starting range.

I'd be fine with changing to 33 hexes.

However, does it bankrupt the current Fed tourney tactic of starting with batteries and dumping energy into overloaded photons at the end of the first turn? If so, are folks fine with that?
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Jim Dauphinais, Chesterfield, MO

St. Louis Area Fed Comm Group: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/STL_Federation_Commander/
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storeylf
Fleet Captain


Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1836

PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm happy with a shorter start range hexes. I'd ask for a slightly larger range than 33 though - say 35. Just so it isn't possible to end at range 1 to the opponents start hex on turn 1.

The fed can still sit in the corner if he wants, unlike plasma who coudn't even get his plasma armed the fed can be armed, most races going speed 32 to reach him are going to be short of power for overloads as well. His 'problem' is getting fully overloaded and I don't consider that a problem, overloading is a luxury that you have to plan your energy for, not some basic requirement.
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The_Rock
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 16 Jul 2008
Posts: 240

PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fed can still do it, it just means that the Fed needs to corner dive. Since the Fed can power up overloads at Speed 8 or Speed 0, that should not be a problem if that is what it chooses to do.
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JimDauphinais
Commander


Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Posts: 754
Location: Chesterfield, MO

PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hope to have the draft rules for the 3rd FCOL Tournament posted tomorrow evening. They will be basically the 2nd FCOL tournament rules modified as a result of the discussions that took place above.

I do have one question to ask.

While I want to stick to monthly rounds after the summer, would folks like the first round to run from July 1st to August 26th in order to give folks more time over the summer vacation season or would they prefer to stick to monthly rounds during July and August?

Thanks,

Jim
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Jim Dauphinais, Chesterfield, MO

St. Louis Area Fed Comm Group: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/STL_Federation_Commander/
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storeylf
Fleet Captain


Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1836

PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ericphillips wrote:
In the future I think the turn limit should be made larger... it just isn't fair to plasma races with their long reload times.


Paul appears to think the longer game disadvantages plasma. He considered his game a forgone conclusion with a few extra turns, but could only manage a draw in 6 turns. For those concerned about plasma in a tourney that would seem to indicate that 6 turns maybe better than 10 turns.

6 turns seems to have been plenty long enough for eveyone bar this one game, unless others hit the turn limit and haven't mentioned it, or I missed any comment. Achieving a victory within a tight time limit seems a reasonable concept to me.

I don't particularly see a need to lengthen a game to try and ensure that it is less likely to be a draw. Draws are a perfectly reasonable conclusion IMO - as someone noted earlier many competitive sports see teams play for a draw if that is all they need, or a loss is more likely otherwise. The only issue that needs resolving there is the draw-loss result which seems an odd one and doesn't gel with the tie breaker system.
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JimDauphinais
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Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Posts: 754
Location: Chesterfield, MO

PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, the point was that a short game creates an undue advantage for defensive play that relies on one time use weapons such as Suicide Shuttles. Plasma has little to do with it (see my aside below).

So, you either apply restrictions on the use of Suicide Shuttles or lengthen the number of turns of play. If you lengthen the number of turns you are providing sufficient time for a player to deal with the one time massed Suicide Shuttle threat. Also, as Patrick has noted, when the full ten turns are needed to get to a conclusion, those turns will likely be moving along fairly fast. They certainly were for Paul and I in our game.

(As an aside, IMO, Plasma is best used on a rolling basis such that it is being applied continuously with the aim to impact with P/S/R plasma on no later than the 3rd impulse of flight and G/F plasma by no later than the 2nd impulse of flight. If too much plasma is launched at once, it will just be run out by the enemy player. However, if it is always present the enemy player will need to either: (i) spend energy and phaser shots on it or (ii) take it on a shield. Note: There are some exceptions to this approach such as during the last turn of the game -- where you will want to fire everything before the end of the turn.)
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Jim Dauphinais, Chesterfield, MO

St. Louis Area Fed Comm Group: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/STL_Federation_Commander/
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storeylf
Fleet Captain


Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1836

PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see the undue advantage that you talk about. You were a sitting duck for anyone beyond a fusion hydran (and it is debatable that you weren't a sitting duck there a well really). Both of you were being 'defensive' and the draw seemed an appropiate conclusion.

It was more Erics comment about longer games benefiting plasma, when Paul had said how that would have guaranteed his win that caught my attention.

Did anyone else have issues with SS or have the turn limit running out? Or is this based on one specific matchup where a very short range fleet met the 1 time that it didn't want to get that close?

Given the number of people who have noted a SS problem, and the number of peope who think plasma needs help in a tourney then setting the length to counter the supposed SS issue seems an overreaction, if as Paul suggests it guarantees plasma loses.
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JimDauphinais
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Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Posts: 754
Location: Chesterfield, MO

PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am going to put this question to a short duration poll because I don't want this to drag over several days.
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Jim Dauphinais, Chesterfield, MO

St. Louis Area Fed Comm Group: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/STL_Federation_Commander/
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