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Point Value of Ships
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leathernsteel
Lieutenant SG


Joined: 07 Jun 2011
Posts: 196
Location: Orlando, FL

PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are my thoughts on the matter. In reality, there is no such thing as a "fair fight". One side will always have some sort of advantage. Take for example boxing, one man is always going to be in slightly better physical condition than the other man. Or soccer, one team may have a few better players on it. In those two cases, they are still consider fair and balanced fights.

If you say we did balance your ships 100% in fed commander, one of the players will still have some sort of advantage, be it; more sleep, has more brain power, has studied more tactical manuals, more experience.

Another example, in WWI and WWII, expert fighter pilots would only engage when they were sure the fight was severely unbalanced and in THEIR favor. I would image that space combat would be a lot like that. A battle cruiser catches a frigate too far from any support.

I say as long as the point values are close, it's good enough for me.
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Masat
Ensign


Joined: 09 Jul 2011
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do not know why but the majority of my post was removed. I believe it may be quotation marks that is the problem we see. I will post my post again with no quotation marks.

Hello Kang. I do not believe there were in the beginning two numbers that were averaged. I believe the printed on the card BPV is probably in somewhere between the fixed map BPV and the open map BPV which I would like to determine both of. I do not believe the designer and his team first developed fixed BPV and open BPV and then made some formula to get card BPV. I am sorry for not being clear.

Yes Scoutdad if we had a Cray supercomputer all would work for me. Smile

And yes Scoutdad you have said what I am meaning perfectly. But I do not mean exactly an average (like a+b/2), but only somewhere in between. Or perhaps both should be lower than printed card for plasma. Smile [I do not know this but only attempting a joke from other posts here]

And mojo jojo why I keep harping on BPV being inaccurate. My first question was fixed or floating is accurate. After I received posts saying the problem was not fixed or floating, but BPV itself was a problem. Then I received posts explaining why BPV was inaccurate that did not make sense to me. I repeated post explaining what I thought the post meant and why it did not make sense to me. This I did for each post received.

Yes, they
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Masat
Ensign


Joined: 09 Jul 2011
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, they are going to be inaccurate for some combination of map/terrain/opponents. But that was not my point. My point was in general many races should have different BPVs for fixed or floating. How different should they be? That was my question to all. You say they are different but not very much. Would you please tell me using the numbers I suggest some examples of what you think they should be?

Hello again Kang. Your later post probably describes exactly how the card BPV is calculated.

Why not just look at a set of ships and decide what would be good fighting against what? That method would be just as valid. Be careful Kang you are dangerous close to saying The points on the card are more for decoration. Wink
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Masat
Ensign


Joined: 09 Jul 2011
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

and to leathernsteel yes I agree as long as the point values are close it is good enough. That is why I play. But I attempt to make it even better! Smile
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mojo jojo
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 23 Jun 2009
Posts: 340

PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Masat wrote:
Yes, they are going to be inaccurate for some combination of map/terrain/opponents. But that was not my point. My point was in general many races should have different BPVs for fixed or floating.


Why are fixed and floating the only places you want different BPV when the points are going to be off even if you have 2 different values? Do you want ships with ADDs to have 2 different values if they're fighting a drone user and if they're not? Do you want to have Selts have different values if they're fighting Tholians and other empires? Do you want plasma to have different values depending on whether there are ships with other heavy weapons to support? Do you want Aegis ships to have different point values depending on how many ships they're supporting and how many enemy ships have seeking weapons? Do you want every ship to have different point values for clear maps, nebula maps, asteroid maps, or black hole maps?

All these factors could potentially make as much difference or more than map type. BPV is just an educated guess meant for a 'ballpark' figure. And sometimes it's even wrong there such as an Orion BR and Fed CL both at 115 pts. Or an ISC CC costing 15 pts more than the CA in fleet scale even though the only difference between the 2 ships is 2 power boxes.
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dharras
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 31 Jul 2009
Posts: 47
Location: Bristol, UK

PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mojo jojo wrote:
Or an ISC CC costing 15 pts more than the CA in fleet scale even though the only difference between the 2 ships is 2 power boxes.


And the 'hidden' command rating which is higher on the CC, obviously....
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Masat
Ensign


Joined: 09 Jul 2011
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you want ships with ADDs to have 2 different values if they're fighting a drone user and if they're not?

No.

Do you want to have Selts have different values if they're fighting Tholians and other empires?

No.

Do you want plasma to have different values depending on whether there are ships with other heavy weapons to support?

No.

Do you want Aegis ships to have different point values depending on how many ships they're supporting and how many enemy ships have seeking weapons?

No.

Do you want every ship to have different point values for clear maps, nebula maps, asteroid maps, or black hole maps?

No.

Do I want different values for a 94 x 3 map with a star in hex 0123 and a black hole in hex 0394?

No.

Do I want Federation to have different values when fighting on a Tuesday at night against a Romulan plus a Tholian when the Tholian is to the left of the Romulan?

No.

As stated in other posts I believe the most common is fixed clear map and open clear map. That is why I am speaking of this. Most common.

Thank you to Scoutdad for explaining my thoughts very well. I would ask mojo jojo to read the post of Scoutdad to better understand my thoughts.

If we had a Cray supercomputer to easily calculate by pressing a single button then I would change my answers to all yes. We do not have a Cray supercomputer to make that easy by pushing a single button so I will have my answer still no and consider the simple and most common. Fixed and floating.

And sometimes it's even wrong there such as an Orion BR and Fed CL both at 115 pts. Or an ISC CC costing 15 pts more than the CA in fleet scale even though the only difference between the 2 ships is 2 power boxes. I agree that is unfortunate that the formula known only to the designer and his team creates that BPV you speak of.
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Scoutdad
Commodore


Joined: 09 Oct 2006
Posts: 4461
Location: Middle Tennessee

PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ha! As part of "the team", I can assure you there is no formula that we are aware of.
Way back in teh days of abacus' and rules written on clay cartouches... maybe.
Nowadays, when we get a new ship design.. Steve estimatse the BPV based on experience. IOW - what ship does this one closely resemble ion regards to totaol boxes. power, weapons, etc.
We then assign it that BPV for playtest round 1... play as many games as we can, then tweak the number up or down .Then it's round two of playing at that number. After many games/days/weeks, the reports are compiled and further refinements are made.

This continues until all staffers are relatively happy with the number slected. We attemtp to play multiple games on all types of maps and against all opponents. this isn't alwyas possible, but we try.
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Kang
Fleet Captain


Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 1949
Location: Devon, UK

PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scoutdad wrote:
Ha! As part of "the team", I can assure you there is no formula that we are aware of.
Way back in teh days of abacus' and rules written on clay cartouches... maybe.
Nowadays, when we get a new ship design.. Steve estimatse the BPV based on experience. IOW - what ship does this one closely resemble ion regards to totaol boxes. power, weapons, etc.
We then assign it that BPV for playtest round 1... play as many games as we can, then tweak the number up or down .Then it's round two of playing at that number. After many games/days/weeks, the reports are compiled and further refinements are made.

This continues until all staffers are relatively happy with the number slected. We attemtp to play multiple games on all types of maps and against all opponents. this isn't alwyas possible, but we try.

*Quoted from 'A Demonstration of Advanced Blindfold Typing Skills', 1st Edition, by Tony L. Thomas* Very Happy
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Scoutdad
Commodore


Joined: 09 Oct 2006
Posts: 4461
Location: Middle Tennessee

PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Embarassed That's what I get for answering a post just before I leave work (when I'm already almost an hour past scheduled departure time... and working on salary!!!)

*Quoted from 'The World's Best Guide To Kicking a Guy When He's Down and The Excuses They Attempt to Pass Off" by Tony Cutliff, Devon UK, copyright 2011
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