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Prime Directive Federation
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Sgt_G
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jean / SVC: Does PD: Fed speak about enlisted / officer promotion systems at all? No, I don't have the book. I don't want to buy it in D20; I'm waiting for the GURPS version. Thanks!
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Garth L. Getgen
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Jean
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Garth, I believe that was pretty thoroughly covered for the Federation in the Core Rulebook for the systems.
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mojo_billbo
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jean wrote:
Garth, I believe that was pretty thoroughly covered for the Federation in the Core Rulebook for the systems.


Yes, it's in GURPS Prime Directive.
Pages 35 and 36.
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Sgt_G
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, thanks. That does but does not cover what I had in mind. That's all written in game-terms, whereas I was looking for real-world terms. Maybe I'm just "crawling thru the weeds too deep", but I have some notes on how long Time In Service / Time In Grade it takes to move up, etc. I'll put it together in something that makes sense. Whether you all use it or not is up to SVC, as always.
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Steve Cole
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Star Fleet Universe covers a period of over 200 years, and I'm sure that time in service requirements changed many times. That being the case, there's no point in definining such things.
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Sgt_G
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, well. No problem. Using real-world modern-day information, I find the it varies for enlisted. However, and I did not know this before, but officer promotions are somewhat defined by Congress.

A few weeks ago, I was reading stuff on FanFic dot com. It annoys me when I read a fiction story and see "At age 28, he was the youngest Captain ever." Go to the next story, and the main character ther was the youngest at age 27. Two stories later, someone else made their character a Captain at 26. I'm waiting to see the story in which teen-agers are commanding starships. {sigh}

Using real-world numbers, one cannot go to Academy or West Point until age 17. It takes four years to graduate ... none of this "Four years? I'll do it in three!" So an officer can be a 2Lt / Ensign at age 21. It takes two years to make 1Lt / LT-jg and another two for Capt / LT. That's pretty much set in stone.

Now, to move up to Major / LtCmdr and then to LtCol / Cmdr and again to COL / CAPT, the LAW requires three years time in grade for each promotion. Of course, no one is ever promoted at the minimum time, but let's say somehow someone does. They will be 17+4+2+2+3+3+3 = 34 years old when they make O-6 Captain.

In theory, you can have a child prodigy get his degree by age 18 and then get a direct commision via OTS / OCS. That shaves off three years, and it is legal to promote from 2LT to 1LT in 18 months vice 24. Ergo, the absolute youngest a person in modern-day US military can theoretically make O-6 is age 30-1/2 years.

As I said, each branch of the service has its own rules for enlisted. In the US Air Force, the minimum time in service to make rank is: E5 = 3 years, E6 = 5 years, E7 = 8 years, E8 = 11 years, and E9 = 14 years. In my 26 year USAF carreer, I only ever met one CMSgt (E9) who made it in under 16 years.
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gurps_gm
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bought the PDF version when it came available. Yippee!
I plan to buy the hard copy version ASAP. I might get in loose leaf format.
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aramis
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Joined: 25 Jul 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sgt_G:

It is possible to get commissioned at 19 for a cadet at NMMI; won't hit active duty until 20 or 21. 17 to enroll in NMMI's 2 year ROTC Jr College, and then a mandated go to a 4-year to complete a BA/BS/BEd before active time, and could in theory take overload and complete conversion of his AA/AS to a BA/BS in 1. see http://www.nmmi.edu/rotc/ROTCandNMMIFacts.htm

Likewise, a 17yo 4 year JROTC cadet can do college ROTC in 3 years last I checked (which was in the 90's), as 4 year JROTC cadets can skip 1st year ROTC. (Looks like that's still the case.) So a 17yo graduate could be 20 at commissioning.

Just not via an Academy. And I've seen no evidence that there is a non-academy officer route in the PTU nor the SFU.
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Sgt_G
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aramis,

My best friend form high school got into something like that. He went to a military school, not VMI but one of its cousins, and was one of forty selected nation-wide for a special advanced promotion path. He got his two-year associate's degree in miltary history and was commissioned as a 2Lt in the Army reserves doing week-end warrior duty. He was given four years to finish his BS in something useful to the Army, at which point he went to active duty with a six-year committment. He wasn't eligible for 1Lt while still in the Reserves, but all the time-in-grade counted.

The point remains, however, that it's not mathimatically possible (under today's rules) to make O-6 Capt/Col under thirty years of age.
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terryoc
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Might not time-in-grade considerations be waived for extraordinary circumstances? E.g. heroic action during wartime (the ESS officer in the story about the mutiny on the Demonslayer was promoted for success even though he hadn't had the necessary time in grade.)
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Carthaginian
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

terryoc wrote:
Might not time-in-grade considerations be waived for extraordinary circumstances? E.g. heroic action during wartime (the ESS officer in the story about the mutiny on the Demonslayer was promoted for success even though he hadn't had the necessary time in grade.)


They certainly CAN... but they very seldom ARE.
Sometimes, extraordinary do happen- such as the US Army waving PDLC for all E-4's eligible for promotion to E-5 in the wake of the first OIF- but things like that are exceedingly rare.
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Ravenhull
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Way back in the dark ages of PD 1st Ed, the Federation sourcebook had some stuff on alternate Vulcan Psi paths, including a 'dark' path. I wonder if there is any plans to bring them into current PD.
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terryoc
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ravenhull, I also would be interested to see alternative Vulcan psi abilities in PD. Or even some alternative psi abilities for non-Vulcan psionics. People with terrifying psionic powers were the villains in two of the TV shows. I suppose a GM could borrow from the extensive rules material for GURPS for that, if he wished to do so. I don't know about D20M.
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Jean
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PD20M has a huge section on psi abilities. GURPS has GURPS psionics that covers the topic should you choose to want psi in your campaign.
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aramis
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sgt_G wrote:
Aramis,

My best friend form high school got into something like that. He went to a military school, not VMI but one of its cousins, and was one of forty selected nation-wide for a special advanced promotion path. He got his two-year associate's degree in miltary history and was commissioned as a 2Lt in the Army reserves doing week-end warrior duty. He was given four years to finish his BS in something useful to the Army, at which point he went to active duty with a six-year committment. He wasn't eligible for 1Lt while still in the Reserves, but all the time-in-grade counted.

The point remains, however, that it's not mathimatically possible (under today's rules) to make O-6 Capt/Col under thirty years of age.


It's possible, theoretically, if a commissioned at 19 gets 2x 1year TIG waivers. (See AR 600.)
O1->O2 2y TIG (USC says 18mo, SA has raised it), 1 of which is required to be active service.
O2->O3 2y TIG (4y total) *
O3->O4 3y TIG (7y total) *
O4->O5 3y TIG (10y total)
O5->O6 3y TIG (13y total)

* 6-9 month TIG BTZ waivers for these two are not uncommon. Up to 1yr waiver permitted by DOD for meritorious service, esp. meritorious combat service.

If commissioned at 19, completes college in 1 year, has the second year active, and gets promoted right off in every selection... O6 at 31 without any BTZ's. (Noting that current AR 600 doesn't mention Time In Service requirements... at least not in the current version on Army Personnel's website.) With a couple of BTZ waivers for officers in mission critical fields, it's JUST barely possible for a kid who starts his "career" with JROTC, then a 2 year commissioning program, to make O6 by 30. 29 at the very earliest.

It's an outside stretch.


Note that the max age by grade is also determined by the same processes... boards are annual, and two pass-overs is must resign if CO doesn't sign off on an ATZ (Above the Zone).
So:
O1: 0-5y post commission
O2: 2-10y post commission
O3: 4-16y post commission
O4: 7-22y** post commission
O5: 10-28y** post commission
O6: 13-30y** post commission
O7+: 14-40y*** post commission
** caps at 20 if reserve officer, 30 if regular commission.
*** flag officers/general officers can stay in to 62, and AR 600 only requires 1y TIG as O6.

Back to PD
If we use the TOS/TAS vids as evidence, it appears that SF has no "up or out" policy... and/or clearly takes some in later in life. The womanizer made it at 34, after 4 y in the academy and a presumable 21yo at commission... so it supports the same minimums.

But it doesn't appear to support the same maximums. (Just look at all the gray-hair in the goons!)
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