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Hellbore request
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duxvolantis
Lieutenant SG


Joined: 16 Nov 2010
Posts: 185

PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 5:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mjwest wrote:

As I mentioned in both threads (this one and the old one), hellbores has a very distinct advantage over what they get in SFB. There is no real need to make them even more powerful than they already are. Hellbores are supposed to be a "whittling" weapon, and not be a "big punch" weapon. And when half the damage is always going to hit a single shield, the "whittling" doesn't take as long in FC as it would in SFB.


I disagree. I think the whittling takes longer than in SFB and in general Hellbores are weaker.

1) In SFB phasers were able to be resolved before hellbores and therefore influenced the calculation of the weakest shield.

2) In FC the ability to shift 5 boxes dramatically increases the amount of time it will take for the hellbore to start doing internals during which time they will be losing all or most of a shield every turn. Hydran ships are designed to absorb a single large volley and retain fighting capability--but with only 12 weapon boxes and few padding weapons a couple decent volleys can strip the ship of most of its firepower.

3) It is true that in SFB there was a chance the defender could use clever reinforcement to spread the damage among 3-4 shields, but this was mitigated by the ability to fire some or all hellbores during direct fire (without the implosion detonators).

4) Shields can be repaired rapidly in FC. In particular a disruptor ship can maintain decent speed and repair a lot of whittling at little risk or opportunity cost.

5) In SFB when multiple shields were down, MORE of the damage became internals. (with 2 equal shields, damage was split into 3rds with 2/3s become internals if weakest meant down or nearly down, and so on). So in later turns the hellbore always doing half to the weakest shield and spreading the rest can rob it of some more internals. A good example of this is when the target ship has a non-facing shield down and then when the hellbore ship fires at close range the phasers (in SFB) were able to take the facing shield down as well before hellbores were resolved.

I think Dan has a point--plus it just doesn't make sense that the Hydrans would forget how to fire the weapon in armed in a way that was the original design of the technology when being able to do so is clearly needed in certain conditions.

Edit: Hellbores have one notable enhancement in FC--that being the ability to overload on demand with the massive reserves of energy instead of requiring plotting in SFB. However this is true of all heavy weapons in FC and therefore is not as big of an improvement at it seems.
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Dux Volantis
Romulan Star Empire
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Dan Ibekwe
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Joined: 08 Mar 2007
Posts: 452
Location: Manchester UK

PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thankyou, Dux, that was far more elegantly and succinctly put than my efforts.

Saved - Well, it's fortunate that Terry happened to say what you would have said if you'd thought to say it.
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Savedfromwhat
Commander


Joined: 23 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quite fortunate. Its just too bad time was wasted on a foolish argument about a situation built on bad tactics.
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storeylf
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Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1883

PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't particularly agree with the basic argument about 1 vs 1 being that bad. But even if it was true, what is being asked for would seem to make Hellbores far to potent, being able to choose whether to apply the main damage chunk to the facing shield or the weakest shield is over top IMO. The 1 vs 1 duel may not be easy but not to the point of warranting such a significant change.

I'm also not to keen on looking at a weapon in isolation. Hellbore ship come with gatlings, and possibly stingers and fusions (either on the same ship, or as part of a squadron). Not to mention that requested change affects more than just 1 vs 1 duels, where Dan acknowledges they don't suffer. Orions and Wyn can get them, but they are just options, and Orions certainly have plenty going for them already.
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Capt Jack
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Joined: 12 Mar 2011
Posts: 102
Location: England U.K

PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

storeylf wrote:
Orions certainly have plenty going for them already.


Thank you, Storeylf you are to kind! Very Happy
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DaveP.
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Joined: 07 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've done a bunch of duels with Hydran ships of various sizes versus equivalent Klingon ships; I've never felt that the Hellbore was a disadvantage and (aside from a few where the dice just went crazy on someone) the duels were won not by one race consistantly but by the player who flew better that night. Short games favor the Klingon, long ones the Hydran; but in general I've found Hellbore ships well-matched against Klingons and have always enjoyed the experience no matter which side I was on.
Also, to expand on Storeylf, any change you make to Hellbores to give Hydrans a bigger advantage in duels... is going to be magnified in scenarios and squadron-or-larger fights. Since they already do pretty darn good in larger-scale conflicts I don't see the point in unbalancing things in their favor.

Quote:
DaveP - splendid response! Patronising, condescending and with a sweeping, unsupported assertion replacing any form of argument. Keep it up, that man! I have been playing Hydrans as my main empire in SFB since the 1980s. Have you?
[/quote]

Dan, it's amazing to me that you can read so much into so few words; but I guess that if you deliberately go looking for an excuse to feel offended you generally find it. Enjoy your high dudgeon, and I hope it makes you feel better.
(and oh yeah- I WAS playing SFB from back when the Captain's Edition first came out, and I played a lot of Hydrans... but I'm kind of at a loss as to why you'd try to claim authority from time spent playing a totally seperate game from the one under discussion...? ah never mind).
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Last edited by DaveP. on Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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terryoc
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Joined: 07 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
5) In SFB when multiple shields were down, MORE of the damage became internals.


In FC, at least, a ship with two down shields will take the weak-shield element and one of the five other shield elements as damage, and the other four (still up) shields will take the remainder.

So, for example, a single HB hitting a ship at range 9-15 will do six internals and one point to each of the other shields. You pick one of the down shields as the "weakest" (doesn't matter which); then divide the second element by five and apply that. Shield #1 (down and "weakest") 5 damage as internals. #2, also down, 1 point added to the other five as internal damage. Shields #3-#6, one point of damage each.[/quote]
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duxvolantis
Lieutenant SG


Joined: 16 Nov 2010
Posts: 185

PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

terryoc wrote:
Quote:
5) In SFB when multiple shields were down, MORE of the damage became internals.


In FC, at least, a ship with two down shields will take the weak-shield element and one of the five other shield elements as damage, and the other four (still up) shields will take the remainder.

So, for example, a single HB hitting a ship at range 9-15 will do six internals and one point to each of the other shields. You pick one of the down shields as the "weakest" (doesn't matter which); then divide the second element by five and apply that. Shield #1 (down and "weakest") 5 damage as internals. #2, also down, 1 point added to the other five as internal damage. Shields #3-#6, one point of damage each.
[/quote]
I understand.

I was just rebutting the notion that Hellbores are better than in SFB when it is pretty clear that they are worse off in many ways.
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