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Who hets first
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ncrcalamine
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Joined: 23 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 5:21 am    Post subject: Who hets first Reply with quote

A one point per hex ship and a three quarter movement point ship are tractored. Both are speed 8 which is reduced to 0 because of the tractor and the speed drop on the one movement point ship. Both are beat up with several bad shields. Sub pulse 4 both declare hets. Who hets first. Do not remember turn modes.

Thanks
Nicole[/code]
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Savedfromwhat
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would be based on turn modes, and if both turn modes are the same you would have to write down the moves simultaneously and reveal them together. See the rules on move precedence for more clarification.
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Bolo_MK_XL
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IIRC the ship that was using the Tractor would have the advantage, so the tractored ship be required to do everything first ---
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terryoc
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bolo, nope. The faster ship "controls movement" but an HET (or turning, for that matter) is not "movement" within the meaning of the rule. (In this particular case, NEITHER ship controls movement because neither ship is moving. It doesn't matter as far as HETs are concerned.) So the answer given is correct: the normal precedence rules apply since HETs are performed in order of precedence.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The rules lawyer in me disgarees due to the wording of the tractor rules. The towing ship has his base speed reduced by one category. The captured ships base speed is not actually affected - it is forced to move with the tower, but there was no actual modifiaction to it's base speed. Therefore it is technically the faster ship (being base speed 8 rather than 0), and goes last.

A more interesting scenario would be a speed 24 tractoring a speed 24. The controller slows to 16. What happens to the caught ship? Is it still 24 as there was no explicit change to its base speed, is it 16 the same as the tower (which in other cases could increase its base speed)? is it Zero, or even stopped, cos it is tractored and affectively has no movement? If the controller was a bigger ship (with -2 to base speed) would it be 8, whilst the controller is 16?

A clarification on the 'effective' base speed of the victim might be useful. As when it comes to HET it could be important, not just relative to the controller but other ships in the area.
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Savedfromwhat
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"The period while tractored does not effect its turn mode"

'its' refering to the tractored ship would seem to imply that it isn't considered moving at all. For purposes of determining precedence though I would agree that Storeylf's assessment looks correct. I to am curious about an official ruling here.
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Bolo_MK_XL
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Didn't have my rulebook for my first response, this is how I got there ---

In 5D6b:
Only the ship which has put more energy into it's movement actually moves,

second paragraph
If Engine power is identical, then the two linked ships do not move
(not sure if that was a change from earlier rules)

(So the 1 movement cost ship wouldn't be slowed to zero)

The misunderstanding is in Speed vs Power used ----
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 5:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Who hets first Reply with quote

ncrcalamine wrote:
A one point per hex ship and a three quarter movement point ship are tractored. Both are speed 8 which is reduced to 0 because of the tractor and the speed drop on the one movement point ship. Both are beat up with several bad shields. Sub pulse 4 both declare hets. Who hets first? Do not remember turn modes.

OK, people are confusing two issues here.

First, even though not asked, there is the question of who controls movement, if either. In this case both ships have allocated for speed 8. That means the movement one ship has spent 8 points of power on movement, while the 3/4 movement ship has spent 6. That means the movement one ship controls movement.

Another point. Only the ship that controls movement has to worry about how speed is reduced. The movement one ship, being larger, drops one "level" of speed to speed 0. The other ship doesn't lose a level of speed, but flat out cannot move at all because it doesn't control the speed. That means it cannot do anything other than HET (which is, in fact, what it wants to do) or use Tactical Maneuvers.

This also means that, despite being speed 0, the speed one ship can still use acceleration and deceleration, while the speed 3/4 ship cannot. So, depending on how it wants to turn, it may in fact not have to HET, but it may be able to simply turn and show the new shield that way. (Subject, of course, to turn mode and other normal considerations of movement.)

I just want to make sure this point is clear.

Second, whether ships are tractored or not, movement precedence still takes effect. Since both ships are not moving, we can move past that point. The last differentiator is turn mode. Whomever has the better turn mode makes the HET last. If they have the same turn mode, then both ships write down their HET and reveal it at the same time.

(The correct answer was given earlier, but there was enough confusion being generated that I wanted to restate it.)
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 9:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Who hets first Reply with quote

Not sure who was confused by the controlling bit, but...

Quote:

Only the ship that controls movement has to worry about how speed is reduced.


I beg to differ... the victim needs to know what his base speed is for precedence purposes. In particular for HET purposes as per this thread.

mjwest wrote:
The other ship doesn't lose a level of speed, but flat out cannot move at all because it doesn't control the speed.


Going back to what I was quering, you have confirmed that the victim doesn't drop a speed bracket, so what is his base speed for order of precedance purposes? Not in this example but generally. e.g. If a speed 24 ship is tractored by a speed 24 ship, and the controlling ship drops a level to 16, what is the speed of the victim when we come to HET order?

You have said he doesn't drop a speed level, so is it still 24, and hence faster than any speed 16 ship? Or is it always speed 0? or the same as the controller or some other rule? That to me seems to be the issue with tractors and HET and precedence, a lack of rule on what the base speed the victim is considered.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 10:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Who hets first Reply with quote

storeylf wrote:
Going back to what I was quering, you have confirmed that the victim doesn't drop a speed bracket, so what is his base speed for order of precedance purposes?

The ship that does not control movement is effectively at a baseline speed of zero. What its original baseline speed was is irrelevant, as "[t]he engines ... have no effect."

As I have said multiple times before, being in a tractor and not controlling movement is bad and it sucks big time.
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ncrcalamine
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is the lower movement cost ship effectively speed zero or is it effectively sped stopped.

Nicole
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ncrcalamine wrote:
Is the lower movement cost ship effectively speed zero or is it effectively sped stopped?

Speed zero. To be stopped the ship must have already been stopped, or has to use Emergency Deceleration.
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Savedfromwhat
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike, if it is the case that the tractored ship is speed 0 while held, it should be made more explicit in the rules. Something along the lines of:

Any unit that is not stopped immediately before a tractor beam is applied and does not control movement is considered speed 0 for purposes of determining movement precedence.
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Bolo_MK_XL
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Any unit that is not stopped immediately before a tractor beam is applied and does not control movement is considered speed 0 for purposes of determining movement precedence.



That would preclude Acc/Dec, since stopped ships can't use them ---
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Savedfromwhat
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't get the implication Bolo, can you expand on that.
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