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Map types and Plasma Torps

 
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Patrick Doyle
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 18 Aug 2007
Posts: 208
Location: Norfolk, VA

PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:52 am    Post subject: Map types and Plasma Torps Reply with quote

Mike, I have a question about maps and plasma torpedoes.
I had always assumed the rules stated that you had to play on a fixed map when using plasma torpedoes.

What the rule actually says is: Always use a location map instead of a fixed map with plasma.

Is this right? Is doesn't sound like it could be. A location map is essentially a fixed map because it limits the amount that it can float. It really seems to me that fixed needs to be replaced with floating.

"Always use a fixed or location map instead of a floating map with plasma." This is how it should read I beleive. It is how we have played.

The tournament has been played on a fixed 42x30 map for years.

As always thanks for your prompt answers.
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terryoc
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Patrick, location map is correct. I remember the discussion waaaaay back when Rom Border was being developed. Fixed maps were considered too small and floating maps punished seeking plasma too severely. Location maps were the compromise.
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storeylf
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Joined: 24 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Which reminds me, I was meant to be playing Paul with plasma on a fixed 99*99 map to see how much that made things better or worse for plasma than the standard small tourney map. Need to check whether he is back from where ever he went.
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Kang
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Joined: 23 Sep 2007
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Location: Devon, UK

PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The whole discussion about plasma, locations, maps and objectives is very interesting. My son and I were playing a game (Gorn vs. Lyran) the other day where this subject came up again.

Sure, you agree on a location map but, as we've just seen, this is essentially simply a larger fixed map (as an aside, there is a useful tactic on cornering people on a location map here: http://tinyurl.com/d2qtgtd).

We have found that you do need a large location map for it to make any difference, preferably at least as wide as three turns at full speed - so Lee's idea of 99*99 would be about right - although remember that in practice a location map is hexagonal, so a more correct description would be a 50-hex radius map or whatever.
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Last edited by Kang on Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My planned game came out of another couple of games we played on large maps (one fully floating, the other 99*99). Thinking about it I thought that plasma might not be as badly off as some might think. Based on a quick discussion I think Paul is thinking the same as well.

The small tourney map is killer for plasma (and some other empires) at top tourney level of play. The larger map however allows the gorn the room to launch and rearm without being trapped up on the edge, unless the opponent can actually force the trap (i.e. earn it through superior play) . On the smaller map the opponent doesn't have to do anything to 'earn' the edge trap, it is pretty much guaranteed.

On a smaller tourney map you can't dribble your plasma out as the opponent can eat it and immediataly kill you as you are usaully close to an edge with no where to run (note, I'm thinking tourney where big crunch empires dominate). However, on a larger map you can dribble the plasma and the opponent cannot really afford to eat it as he may still be a couple of turns away from trapping you for a killer blow with more plasma coming each turn. Depending on who he is he can't readily phaser it as he is then losing a phaser fight, as well as losing power for speed/manouvering against you (and can seldom phaser all the plasma anyway). On the other hand he can't really turn away from it as then he is not going to trap you at all, and it may be him getting trapped against an edge with plasma bearing down eventually.


The sort of empires that can deal with a longer range style fight are the ones that may find themselves being herded by the plasma user as they lack the killer crunch to keep stuff away from close range.

Non of that is to say that plasma will have it easy by any stretch of the imagination, but it doesn't look as bad as the current tourney situation. The Roms are still paying for a largely useless cloak, and the Gorns are just badly overpointed at cruiser level compared to most other cruisers (at least, I haven't looked much at their smaller ships). But I think it may be an interesting game.
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Kang
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Joined: 23 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lee's latest post has, for me at least, highlighted a two-edged sword for plasma users that I hadn't seen before.

In the favour of the plasma empire, there is less space for the target of the plasma to run away, from the plasma or anchor attempts, or both.

In the favour of the target empire, there is less space for the plasma user to run once he has used his ready torps.

If both protagonists are plasma ships, then although you'd think it might cancel out, dribbling torps will likely work better for the guy with more launchers. I think?

Interesting Smile
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Patrick Doyle
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Joined: 18 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK here's the thing:

I can see how plasma torps could be used on a fixed or a location map. The key is the size of the map, not whether it is a fixed or location map.
The name of the map does not imply specific size.

A floating map, by definition can go on forever (unless some limitation is placed on it by the scenario).

The fact that the Tournament is played on a fixed map and the fact that the tournament is an ADB sanctioned event seems to indicate that a change in how those rules are written is warranted.

I guess the difference between a fixed and location map is this: A fixed map is just that, a square defined as XX by XX hexes. It could be very small, say 10x10 or 1000x1000 hexes or anywhere in between. Either way, it would likely be a square.

A location map would essentially be a hexagon, where a counter could be map shifted by XX number of hexes.

A floating map, well that is self explanitory. Getting these definitions down is at least important for my work on the Tactics manual. Since plasma obviously gets played at ADB sanctioned tournaments, it seems that the rules should reflect that allowance. As far as I know, it is the only rule we are breaking in the Fed Com Tournament.

ANy one of us could have a different vision of how these are defined so I guess I am just spouting my interpretation.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't get hung up on the type of map, just its size.

I think a 'fixed' map is fine as long as it is large enough, not just for plasma but for other empires like klingons.
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Patrick Doyle
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am simply hoping that the rules can be changed to include fixed map with plasma since fixed map is used in the ADB tournament. Yes, size of the map is the important point.

I beleive the inttent of the rules with regard to plasma, was to have a map of limited size so that there is a chance of cornering someone and scoring a hit with plasma.
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terryoc
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Patrick, "fixed map" seems to mean "standard 42x30 map". (Which is what is used in the tournament.) A location map is a bigger fixed map (as you point out). So saying "location map" and "bigger fixed map" is saying the same thing. And the rules already say to use a location map.
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mjwest
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Joined: 08 Oct 2006
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Location: Dallas, Texas

PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Considering that location is given preference over fixed in both (4J) and (8A1), I have to believe it is intentional. But, for the life of me, I cannot remember why fixed was an issue, rather than floating.

I would tend to agree that both rules should reference floating, rather than fixed, and make it a recommendation rather than a requirement.
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