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Quick federation match up question (ISC and Gorn)

 
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Kingmaker
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Joined: 29 Dec 2011
Posts: 22
Location: Edmonton

PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:26 am    Post subject: Quick federation match up question (ISC and Gorn) Reply with quote

I'm a recent Fed Com purchaser and I got my friends to by into it. We played SFB in the early 90's, and we've forgotten most of what we learned.

I was wondering if anybody could give me a basic overview of these match ups. I own Klingon border, so I have some idea of how the Feds vs Klingons and Kzinti match ups work, but I'm sorta lost in terms of dealing with plasmas and PPDS.

Also as a follow up question, with Plasma torpedos, can gorn and Romulan ships use their batteries to skip the first turn of arming in a similar manner to photons?

Anyway, thanks for any help provided.
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The_Rock
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Joined: 16 Jul 2008
Posts: 240

PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 4:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes they can, better in fact.

Under the rules, they start with the first turn (of [non-F-torp*] plasma arming) done for free. At the cost of 2 batteries used per HW armed (up to a maximum of your batteries available), they can have the second turn done as well.

Absurd example to make it really clear:

Ship A has 10 G-torps and 1 battery. It can start the game down 1 power (its one battery) and have all 10 G-torps in the third turn of arming.


*F-torps start finished and held for no cost.
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Klingon of Gor
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Joined: 01 Jun 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fed vs Romulans: The Feds are generally favored here, although the Romulans can win. The Romulans have some outstanding ship designs, but they tend to be a bit overpointed on account of the cloaking device, though a check of past threads will reveal some controversy about this.

Fed vs Gorn: A tougher match for the Feds than the Romulans. Gorns have the plasma carronade, which turns the F torp into a much more serious threat. There's a thread here, started by Kang, I think, discussing the F torp and the carronade.. Read it. If you find yourself playing Gorns, it's useful information. Also, Gorn ships are built a lot tougher than the Romulans, and will take a lot more pounding. Well played Gorns are competetive with most races, Feds included.

Fed vs ISC: everyone struggles against ISC, Feds included. PPDs reach way out past Fort Mudge and cause serious damage. The Feds claim to fame is that no one else can put out that kind of heavy crunch direct firepower at range 8. But PPDs can cause serious hurt at even longer ranges than photon torpedoes. Of course, you can always get close, inside the myopic zone of the PPDs, but then you get hit with seeking plasma. ISC is a tough opponent, no matter which race you take.

One thing that's changed since SFB days is that Feds tend to run a bit faster than they used to, with the demise of the housekeeping rules. But plasma still moves at speed 32, so it's a little harder to tag them with seeking plasma than it used to be. Plasma is still a useful weapon, but the tactics have changed a bit.
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storeylf
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Joined: 24 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gorns aren't really built tougher than (later) romulans, but romulans pay for a cloak which means you often have to use smaller ships for the same points. Toughness wise the Sparrowhawk is a nicer CL than the Gorn CL, and the FH isn't particularly less tough than the Gorn BCs.

I only have vague memories of SFB, but I always remember the cloak being really good in that game. As aluded to above, I feel the cloak in FC is pretty naff.

PPDs can cause serious harm beyond photon effetive range, but the Feds will have a lot more photons than the ISC will have PPDs. You are usually looking at a ~3: 1 ratio of other empires HW to PPDs even if you max out on PPDs. I prefer an ISC fleet that doesn't max out on PPDs, losing a couple PPDs for some plasma S feels a better fleet in my experience so far (but see bottom para).

Every one has more power in FC, but Feds gained hugely from this, as they were the ones who had major speed issues when trying to fly around hitting people with overloads (from what others say this was more to do with photon loading rules than housekeeping. Whatever it was, I do remember Feds having more issues arming photons and moving fast). In FC they can deliver overloads and do it at fairly high speed. Whilst everyone else has a bit of extra power they can't translate that into the same sort of speed boost to avoid the fast photons.


As to how the matchups play, that depends what sort of games you are talking. For example, Paul is very focussed on tourney play where as I am more focused on a our home brew campaign style of play, so we tend to see things differently as we are playing in different enviroments with different goals in our games.
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Kingmaker
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Joined: 29 Dec 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So would a viable strategy in a Fed vs Gorn game to be to go slow the first turn to fully overload the torpedoes then go speed 24 and volley at range 8? You won't have much power for phasers but you can hopefully cave in a shield every pass?

Also, where is this plasma rule referred to for my reference. If I understand correctly you're saying F's are charged for free, you're automatically complete your first turn of aiming and for your S and G's it just costs two batter power to have their second charge (and be read to fire on the first turn of the game)
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Klingon of Gor
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

storyelf wrote:

Quote:
Gorns aren't really built tougher than (later) romulans


The key word here is "later". Hawks are excellent ships, but they're awfully expensive, especially in a 450 point tournament squadron. Kestrels are not nearly as survivable, and Eagle class ships are pretty much made of tinfoil.

Quote:
PPDs can cause serious harm beyond photon effetive range, but the Feds will have a lot more photons than the ISC will have PPDs. You are usually looking at a ~3: 1 ratio of other empires HW to PPDs even if you max out on PPDs. I prefer an ISC fleet that doesn't max out on PPDs, losing a couple PPDs for some plasma S feels a better fleet in my experience so far (but see bottom para).


The Fed player has more photons, true. Hopefully he won't get ripped apart before he gets to range. I agree with you about trading some PPDs for plasma S. I know a fellow who likes to play ISC, and who made a point of trying both approaches. In my experience, the S torps made his ISC squadrons tougher to face.
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duxvolantis
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Joined: 16 Nov 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kingmaker wrote:
So would a viable strategy in a Fed vs Gorn game to be to go slow the first turn to fully overload the torpedoes then go speed 24 and volley at range 8? You won't have much power for phasers but you can hopefully cave in a shield every pass?

I would attempt a closer shot. If he is coming toward you there are one of three conditions:
1) He has launched a lot of plasma and it is positioned so as to strike a single shield and do significant internals. If this is the case, veer away and run the plasma down to a more manageable amount and then come back guns-a-blazing.
2) He has launched some plasma but you can avoid internals with some combination of phasers and taking the plasma on side shields. (Splitting plasma in a launch is a major rookie plasma mistake. If he does this, plow through the plasma, crawl on top of him and punish him for it.)
3) He is holding plasma. If this is the case the one thing you cannot do is get greedy. Ensure that you have enough energy to HET and run the plasma out, but try for a closer shot. The Range 4 shot works nicely and at this range any phasers you can afford to fire will do nice damage.

Kingmaker wrote:

Also, where is this plasma rule referred to for my reference. If I understand correctly you're saying F's are charged for free, you're automatically complete your first turn of aiming and for your S and G's it just costs two batter power to have their second charge (and be read to fire on the first turn of the game)


It is in the Reference Rulebook Revision 6, (rule 4J2e). You can purchase it on e23, at your local game store, etc. Essentially F's always start fully armed. You can choose to have the first two turns of arming completed for all G, S & R torps on the ship by starting with empty batteries.
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Dux Volantis
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duxvolantis
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Klingon of Gor wrote:

The Fed player has more photons, true. Hopefully he won't get ripped apart before he gets to range. I agree with you about trading some PPDs for plasma S. I know a fellow who likes to play ISC, and who made a point of trying both approaches. In my experience, the S torps made his ISC squadrons tougher to face.


I agree. In 3-4 ship scenarios the ISC needs a mix of PPD and heavy plasma.

In a fleet I like to get pretty close to max PPDs because then you have the ability to really inflict devastating long range damage and you have more than enough plasma to punish someone who tries to bum rush the formation.
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Kingmaker
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Joined: 29 Dec 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Change of question, I tried to play Kzinti instead, I took a new command cruiser, and two battle cruisers against his fleet of 3 CS ships.

Now just to be clear, those Plasma S's convert to PPD's on a one to one basis? With no point change?

I don't know if I was doing something wrong, but the damage output at range 15 from 3 CS's average three pulses each was 72 points of damage on the facing shield, then he just turned away, and fired plasmas at a non vaporized ship.

So to close I am facing 60 points of plasma F or maybe 48, I'm already a ship down, and if I don't eat that plasma, turn 3 another ship dies.

My opponent was wondering if there is some sort of max PPD per squadron limitation.

What the heck am I missing here?
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mjwest
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Joined: 08 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, the ship will have either 2 PPD or 2 Pl-S. (It can't have one of each.)

The last sentence of (4M1) says that "[n]o ISC fleet can have more PPDs than ships." The one exception is that an ISC CS can operate by itself.
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Kingmaker
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Joined: 29 Dec 2011
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Location: Edmonton

PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mjwest wrote:
Yes, the ship will have either 2 PPD or 2 Pl-S. (It can't have one of each.)

The last sentence of (4M1) says that "[n]o ISC fleet can have more PPDs than ships." The one exception is that an ISC CS can operate by itself.


Awesome, actually caught that just after I posted. I still think it's a brutal fight. but he can't reach out and touch me for 72 points of damage at range 15 anymore.

We're much happier hearing that. Plasma S's are painful, but at least more manageable than 6 PPD's
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Bolo_MK_XL
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
We're much happier hearing that. Plasma S's are painful, but at least more manageable than 6 PPD's


Unless he launches the plasma first, you turn to run them out, he scraps off your rear shields with the ppds ---

Could be pretty painful for a smaller ship --
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