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Web breakers

 
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ncrcalamine
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 23 Feb 2010
Posts: 228

PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:20 am    Post subject: Web breakers Reply with quote

When in the firing order do web breakers fire.
I assume the seltorian player can define when a web breaker shoots. Ie.
I shoot the web breaker on the web , down the web, then I shoot the tholian hiding behind the web with remaining weapons. however if I down the web the tholian could shoot me back with photons or phasers if they have not fired yet.

Can you shoot a web breaker at free standing web that has not taken effect yet.

Can a web breaker be used to negate a web fists damage.

Can a web breaker be used to negate a web snare.


Thanks

Nicole
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storeylf
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Joined: 24 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All weapon fire has to be declared up front, so you woudn't have been able to declare the other fire at the time you declare the web breaker fire. Vice versa with the tholian disrupters.
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ncrcalamine
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes but the fire could be declared with targets. The. In the firing phase order matters.

Nicole
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

True - can you actually declare fire at tholians behind webs, I can't check my rule book at the moment.
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JimDauphinais
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Joined: 22 Nov 2009
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Location: Chesterfield, MO

PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Can a web breaker be used to negate a web fists damage.


No. There is nothing under the rules as written for FC that allows it. Web Breakers can only be used versus web hexes or, in special cases, Tholian Dyson Spheres (see 4N3).

Quote:
Can a web breaker be used to negate a web snare.


No. Same reason.


With regard to freestanding web that has not yet formed, I would say it cannot be a target of a Web Breaker because a web hex for it has not yet formed and it is not clear how damage to an unformed web would apply. However, it is a good question for Mike West.
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JimDauphinais
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Joined: 22 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

storeylf wrote:
True - can you actually declare fire at tholians behind webs, I can't check my rule book at the moment.


Section (5M1e) says fire is blocked through web hexes for direct-fire weapons. Based on this, I believe the correct answer is that if the fire is blocked at the time direct-fire announcments need to be made, you cannot declare such fire. In other words, you cannot declare such fire with the hope of breaking down an intervening web hex with simultaenous fire from your your Web Breakers. This said, it is another good question for Mike West.
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mjwest
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Joined: 08 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rule (4A1) says that all fire in a given Offensive Fire Phase is simultaneous. Web Breaker rules give no exception to this, so, no you can't declare targets past the web in hopes that you will knock the web down this phase. Even if the web is knocked down, it won't matter this as the other weapons fire would still be blocked.

A web breaker has no affect on either a web fist or a web snare. In both cases, there is nothing on the map and nothing for a web breaker to affect.

You cannot shoot a web breaker at a free standing web that has not yet taken effect. Prior to taking effect, it isn't really there, so there is nothing to actually shoot at. (In fact, you cannot shoot a web breaker at a free standing web until the second impulse after the web caster is fired. You can't shoot it on the impulse of fire, as its "shadow" doesn't even exist until after the Offensive Fire phase is done. You can't shoot it on the following impulse, as it does not take effect until after all other direct-fire weapons have fired. So, you can only shoot at free standing web the second impulse after it was fired.)
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ncrcalamine
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Joined: 23 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

YES, rule 4a1 says that all fire is simultaneous. It is then ignored.

Examples:
You can fire two ships at a single shield. Ship 1 fires overloads, ship two targets weapons after ship one fires. If it was simultaneous the defender would choose the order the weapons hit the shield. This is very definitely ship 1 firing then ship 2 firing.

Helbores and ESGs are separate volleys that do not hit simultaneously. If they did the defensive player could take the helbore on different weaker or equal shield. Same for ESG. The ESG fires and weakens a shield then you can target weapons on the same shot.



An ESG hitting friendly and enemy ships at the same time. Mike West post 12/2/11
Let's remove empires here. On one side we have Ship L and Ship Z. On the other side we have Ship F and Ship G. I am assuming that each pair is controlled by a single player to simplify the example. On one accursed impulse, Ships F and G fire on Ship Z, whilst Ship L releases an offensive ESG that hits all three ships. That is the setup.

What I am saying is that the player for Ships F and G choose the order damage is applied to Ship Z, including the ESG burst effects. In effect, what Ship L has done is "donate" the damage done to Ship Z to the player for Ships F and G.

Why? Because, really, it can go either way. Anything you want to say so that Ship L controls the timing of the ESG again Ship Z can also be used to explain why the other ships should control the timing instead. So, instead of making a special case, just lump all of the damage to Ship Z together and let the player for Ships F and G sort it all out.


So if the offensive player can choose the order in which attacks are resolved in the other case, why not for web breakers.

Or better yet.
Ship 1 fires web breakers and destroys the web.
Ship 2 shoots at the tholian.


Nicole
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Choosing the order in which damage is applied to a single target is very different from the web breaker scenario. In the example you quoted, the issue was the order that otherwise simultaneous damage is resolved. Sure, it is simultaneous, but with three people causing damage, someone has to roll first, and someone has to roll second, and someone has to roll third. But, no matter how it is rolled, the target received the total of the damage and the damage was effectively all simultaneous.

The web breaker scenario is different. To modify the web breaker scenario to match the quote example, you would have to have everything firing on the web itself. Yeah, it would be very pointless, but that is the direct analogy to the quoted example. The reason is because the quoted example is talking about a single target, while the web example is talking about multiple targets, which is completely different.
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ncrcalamine
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok
Thanks
Nicole
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