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2 questions re: HETs and Shield Position
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Jiraiya1969
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Joined: 17 May 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 10:13 am    Post subject: 2 questions re: HETs and Shield Position Reply with quote

Rule 2D2a says that you can spend energy tokens equal to five points of movement and can cancel the HET in the same sub-pulse.

What kind of scenario could you find yourself where you declare and cancel an HET in the same sun-pulse?

Also Rule 3C3 says that you can take up to 5 shield boxes and transfer them to an adjacent shield to replace disabled boxes. Can you do this to replace disabled boxes in a completely down shield?

Thanks in advance.

Sar
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Davec_24
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 10:54 am    Post subject: Re: 2 questions re: HETs and Shield Position Reply with quote

Sarpeidon wrote:
Also Rule 3C3 says that you can take up to 5 shield boxes and transfer them to an adjacent shield to replace disabled boxes. Can you do this to replace disabled boxes in a completely down shield?


As far as I know, yes you can. The rule says you can replace disabled shield boxes by this method, but does not make an exception for a shield with no functioning boxes remaining (i.e. consists entirely of "disabled" shield boxes), so I would say yes since you are still replacing disabled shield boxes.

As for the HET, I can't really think of an example as to why you'd want to cancel, unless you had already declared and paid for the HET but then suddenly realised it would be a bad move or something like that.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, you may replace shield boxes in a completely disabled shield.

You may not replace shield boxes in a shield without disabled boxes, nor may you replace shield boxes in a shield in excess to the number of disabled boxes it has. (For example, if a give shield has only three disabled boxes, you may only replace those three boxes in that shield. You cannot add a fourth or fifth box to that shield.)

Note that this is different from reinforcement (3C5). You may not reinforce a shield that is completely down. However, you can replace five boxes (meaning the shield is no longer completely down) at the end of the turn, then reinforce those five boxes.
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Scoutdad
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:50 pm    Post subject: Re: 2 questions re: HETs and Shield Position Reply with quote

Quote:

As for the HET, I can't really think of an example as to why you'd want to cancel, unless you had already declared and paid for the HET but then suddenly realised it would be a bad move or something like that.

One such case might be:
You plan to over-run your enemy on Impulse 8 to take out his Plasma Torpedoes before arming can be completed...
then HET to set-up for a follow-up shot next turn with your overloaded Disruptors...
During the approaching fire, you have really bad dice rolls while your opponent has good luck.

After the overrun, your opponent HETs to bring his now fully-loaded (and non-disabled) Plasma Torps o your ship.
Thinking discretion is the better part of valor, you choose not to HET and bring your now non-existant #1 shield to bear, but instead continue moving in the same direction as the Plasma Torpedoes that will soon be chasing you...
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djdood
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I guess I'm confused too.

Using Tony's example above, you wouldn't have to declare or pay for the HET until the sub-pulse where you were suddenly going to do it (unlike in SFB where it seems like everything has to be preplanned on the "tax form"). Since the HET is never pre-planned and is a pay-when-you-use-it things (much like weapons), I'm still failing to see how it would need to be canceled.

The only circumstance that comes to mind for me would be very highly competitive play, where "once announced" an HET cannot be withdrawn. It would then have to be paid for and paid to be canceled.

"Highly competitive" ain't me or my friends, so we allow "take backs" on truly blockheaded moves (as long as the turn-sequence hasn't progressed).
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OGOPTIMUS
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike Powers and I had something like this come up this weekend. I was flying an Orion Battle Raider and he was in a Lyran CA.

I had a higher baseline speed for that turn, and had declared that I was buying a HET for movement sub pulse 4. But, I didn't quite guess his move correctly (I think he actually used a HET too, but I can't remember), and he moved first and moved in such a way that I did not need to actually HET to hit him with a full alpha strike. So I sorta canceled the HET, or just HETed and changed direction by less than 60 degrees.

Didn't work out so well since I lost the engagement on the next impulse, but meh...
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Kang
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

djdood wrote:
"Highly competitive" ain't me or my friends, so we allow "take backs" on truly blockheaded moves (as long as the turn-sequence hasn't progressed).

We're the same at BG Exeter. We've even taken back several moves when we realised we were playing something wrongly, as in with an incorrect rule interpretation.

For us the emphasis is on fun, although it is competitive in a fun way Smile
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junior
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

djdood wrote:
Using Tony's example above, you wouldn't have to declare or pay for the HET until the sub-pulse where you were suddenly going to do it (unlike in SFB where it seems like everything has to be preplanned on the "tax form"). Since the HET is never pre-planned and is a pay-when-you-use-it things (much like weapons), I'm still failing to see how it would need to be canceled.


You announce (and pay for, I believe) an HET at the start of the sub-pulse before either player has moved. If, say, a D5W declares an HET against a Gorn CM, and the CM suddenly performs a completely unexpected move that makes the D5W captain decide that it would be better not to HET, then the D5W would end up paying for the HET, and then paying not to perform it.
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Kang
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

junior wrote:
You announce (and pay for, I believe) an HET at the start of the sub-pulse before either player has moved.

You're right. But why, then, is there an HET announcement card in the play aids of Orion Attack?
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junior
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kang wrote:
junior wrote:
You announce (and pay for, I believe) an HET at the start of the sub-pulse before either player has moved.

You're right. But why, then, is there an HET announcement card in the play aids of Orion Attack?


So that you can put it down to confirm that you're still doing an HET instead of cancelling it and turning left?

Razz

(i.e. you're not really faking out your opponent)
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Kang
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

junior wrote:
Kang wrote:
junior wrote:
You announce (and pay for, I believe) an HET at the start of the sub-pulse before either player has moved.

You're right. But why, then, is there an HET announcement card in the play aids of Orion Attack?


So that you can put it down to confirm that you're still doing an HET instead of cancelling it and turning left?

Razz

(i.e. you're not really faking out your opponent)


Aye. P'raps that's it Smile
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Vladimyr
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Our group tends to handle HET's the same way as "me too firing" situations.

In other words, if player A declares a HET, then player B has the option to declare one as well, if he so chooses. Then they are conducted as per the order of precedence. If the player to move second no longer needs to HET due to the movement of the first player in that sub-pulse, he cancels his HET.

In our group, a cancelled HET does not use up your "free" HET, so cancelling it would then save your "breakdown-free" HET until later in the game. I assume this is correct.
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Davec_24
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vladimyr wrote:
In our group, a cancelled HET does not use up your "free" HET, so cancelling it would then save your "breakdown-free" HET until later in the game. I assume this is correct.


I would also say this is correct, since the ship didn't actually make a HET and so wouldn't impose the dangerous strain on the ship which is what can result in breakdown after the first attempt.

When playing FC, the emphasis is always on fun and getting a good game for me and my gaming group. If one of us makes a mistake and wishes to change it or forgets to do something such as pre-arming, etc. at the appropriate point in the sequence of play, so long as nothing has been done that depended on such a decision and so long as all players agree, we are usually quite lenient about it. We tend to find this makes for a better, more interesting battle as each player is allowed to perform nearer to his best.
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Davec_24
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

junior wrote:
You announce (and pay for, I believe) an HET at the start of the sub-pulse before either player has moved. If, say, a D5W declares an HET against a Gorn CM, and the CM suddenly performs a completely unexpected move that makes the D5W captain decide that it would be better not to HET, then the D5W would end up paying for the HET, and then paying not to perform it.


I had thought that HETs were done in place of a unit's usual move (if it was due to move in that sub-pulse). There was a discussion about when HETs are declared before, and I think that was the general idea anyway. The other thread can be found here:

http://www.starfleetgames.com/federation/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=1454
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junior
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Davec_24 wrote:
I had thought that HETs were done in place of a unit's usual move (if it was due to move in that sub-pulse). There was a discussion about when HETs are declared before, and I think that was the general idea anyway. The other thread can be found here:


This is correct. An HET replaces a unit's normal move (if it is scheduled to move that sub-pulse; as the link notes, you can perform an HET in a sub-pulse in which you are not scheduled to move, though the only reasons that I can see for doing this are either if you're not moving that impulse or if seeking weapons are about to impact). However, you must declare that you are performing an HET that sub-pulse during the start of the sub-pulse before either (any) ship moves.
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