Federation Commander Forum Index Federation Commander
A NEW fast paced board game of starship combat!
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Any tips on filling Orion WPN and DRN options for a BR?
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Federation Commander Forum Index -> Tactics
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
HappyDaze
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 21 Apr 2010
Posts: 51
Location: Tacoma, WA

PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 1:16 pm    Post subject: Any tips on filling Orion WPN and DRN options for a BR? Reply with quote

I'm looking at the Orions after a few recent games where their excellent Turn Modes impressed me. I'm also really in favor of their PH-1 loadouts after running Hydrans and Lyrans with PH-2s. However, I'm not entirely sure what to take in my OPT mounts.

The ship that stands out in my eyes as a great blend of maneuver, durability (for an Orion), and firepower is the Battle Raider. What are suggest OPT selections for this ship?

I'm tempted to take a PL-S on the A mount (leaving the B mount empty), but the alternative of a PL-G and a PL-F on the A and B mounts seems more useful to me.

Also, I'm not terribly fond of Drones, but I'm not sure the extra PH-1s on the wings are needed. The Drones would add another element to the ship while more PH-1s just improve what it can already do. I don't know who my opponent is likely to be and battles with 2-5 ships per side is the norm, so there could be some massing of Drones.

Lastly, is a Cloaking Device worth the cost? I know it doesn't mix well with using Drones, but otherwise?


Last edited by HappyDaze on Mon May 17, 2010 6:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kang
Fleet Captain


Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 1937
Location: Devon, UK

PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally, I always like a phaser-G in the mix for any Orion ship. Best in the front option mounts unless you want a 'big' S-plasma there.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
HappyDaze
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 21 Apr 2010
Posts: 51
Location: Tacoma, WA

PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am considering a plasma boat for 121 points with:
A) PL-G
B) PL-F
C) PL-F
Y) PH-1
Z) PH-1

The alternate for 123 points:
A) PL-S
B) (empty)
C) PL-F
Y) PH-1
Z) PH-1

And for 128 points I can get a longer-range sniper:
A) PPD
B) (empty)
C) PL-F
Y) PH-1
Z) PH-1
(I'm not really too fond of this one because the PPD seems vulnerable being the only Drone hit.)

Also, I don't see it spelled out anywhere, but can an empty WPN or DRN box soak a damage point? I'm pretty sure it cannot, but I figured I'd ask.

How about Ion Cannons? They seem like a fair substitute for Photons, trading some damage for accuracy. They also seem to be more efficient in power when overloaded (2+2 base and only another +2 to fully overload) compared to Photons.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
HappyDaze
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 21 Apr 2010
Posts: 51
Location: Tacoma, WA

PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How about this one with no TORP hits for 129 points?
A) PPD
B) (empty)
C) PH-G
Y) Drone
Z) Drone
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
storeylf
Fleet Captain


Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1836

PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A) Ph-1
B) Ph-1
C) Ph-1
Y) Ph-1
Z) Ph-1


All 1 turn weapons.
Good damage-energy efficiency.
Low energy per turn (no temptation to double engine and throw away the stealth and engine boxes)
Decent or better damage at all ranges.
Flexible, good against all comers.
Can run speed 24 and fire all 9 ph-1 each turn.

With stealth and a good turn mode a phaser boat can match anything I can think of in its point range.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mjwest
Commodore


Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 3464
Location: Dallas, Texas

PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any Orion worth his salt is gonna want that Ph-G in the mix. It is quite nearly mandatory. Especially on Fleet Scale ships that get a combined 360 arc to put it in. Personally, I generally avoid the Ph-G for most games, though I doubt I would in a tournament.

For a plasma boat, I would almost assuredly take a Pl-G instead of a Pl-S. Quite simply, a Pl-G + Pl-F is just way stronger than a single Pl-S. The Pl-G can quick-load exactly the same as the Pl-S, plus the damage potential of the two plasmas is more than the Pl-S. The only advantage the Pl-S has is range, and unless you are assaulting fixed positions, that shouldn't matter to your BR. Oh, add in the fact that the extra Pl-F is another carronade you get to use. I just can't see any justification for going with a Pl-S over the combination of a Pl-G + Pl-F.

For the Ion Cannon, I agree. Ever since we got the Ion Cannon in the game, I have been itching to give it a try. It would seem to be to be the perfect Orion heavy weapon, with better accuracy than a photon and better crunch than a disruptor. Plus, the hyper-efficient overloads are very tempting, too.

On either of the above ships, I am going to be strongly tempted to use Ph-1s in the wings. Since neither is using hellbores or PPDs, there is no incentive to use the drones for "padding", so you might as well just take the extra phasers (which serve as a sort of "padding" for the other phasers).

So, that's what I would be looking at. Either Pl-G, Pl-F, Pl-F, 2xPh-1; or 3xIon, 2xPh-1.

The one exception is that in a drone-heavy fleet environment, you might want to consider Pl-D racks in the wings. They will let you kill a lot of drones a lot faster than phasers, and will help cover your wing-mates, too.
_________________

Federation Commander Answer Guy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
mjwest
Commodore


Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 3464
Location: Dallas, Texas

PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

storyelf,

I gotta say that is the first suggested phaser-boat that did not include a Ph-G I have ever seen. If I am going to take an all-phaser Orion ship, I cannot image not having the one allowed Ph-G.
_________________

Federation Commander Answer Guy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
HappyDaze
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 21 Apr 2010
Posts: 51
Location: Tacoma, WA

PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Would it be reasonable to have asymmetrical wing mounts? I am considering going with:

A) PL-G
B) PL-F
C) PL-F
Y) PH-G/PH-1*
Z) PH-1/PH-G*

*If I fly a pair of these, I'll alternate the wing mounts and have one PH-G to each side when the ships are in tight.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mjwest
Commodore


Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 3464
Location: Dallas, Texas

PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A lot of tournament SFB players swear by asymmetrical mounts. (Though, for them, it is usually a drone/Ph-1 combo.)
_________________

Federation Commander Answer Guy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
storeylf
Fleet Captain


Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1836

PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mjwest wrote:
storyelf,

I gotta say that is the first suggested phaser-boat that did not include a Ph-G I have ever seen. If I am going to take an all-phaser Orion ship, I cannot image not having the one allowed Ph-G.


I'm probably biased by my games playing under the tournament rules, as we've been doing a lot lately.

The PhG gives you a range 0-2 kick (about 10% on my orion ships of choice in a tourney style game) and a slight drop in damage after that. On the other hand, I do not see the ship as a point blank exchange style of ship. It relies on energy efficiency, stealth, speed and manouvering to either force enemy ships to use lots of power trying to chase it (which leaves other energy issues for the enemy) or accept a signifcant reduction in damage due to stealth - remember stealth works best at long range where +1 makes a significant difference to most weapons (at 9-15 a disrupter is 25% less effective and a Ph1 is 50% less effective). With 9 Ph1s and good manouverability it can suddenly nip in and deliver a good close range kick if the chance presents itself. The tourney situation favors ships of the close and crunch variety due to the fixed map, hence I would not expect a single PhG to be of any consequence on a phaser boat - by the time that is useful it is likely that the other side has reached a point of dealing way more damage than I'm gaining.

Points count much more in the touney scenario - no draws here unless it really is a zero point difference, 1 pt is all that's needed to win or lose. I've won at least 2 games recently by less than the cost of PhGs for 3 ships, and for a single G I don't see that it gives me enough to make up the cost. If I could take 1 in each option mount then it might be different - that is where getting up close starts to become a case of instant death on most enemies and it becomes a case of how expensive can you make them before people don't take them - see LDR for that example (for less cost than a BR you can have an LDR ship with 4 PhG and 2 ESG delivering a potential 100 damage per turn at point blank range before 'offensive' weapons are added).

But yes, That wasn't the OPs scenario so a PhG might be a good addition.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mjwest
Commodore


Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 3464
Location: Dallas, Texas

PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fair enough.

But, to me, the point of the Ph-G is not actually its offensive potential. It is its defensive potential. A Ph-G is two dead drones (or, when desperate, a chance for four dead drones), and 7-8 points less on a plasma warhead.

The offensive potential is just a bonus.
_________________

Federation Commander Answer Guy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Kang
Fleet Captain


Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 1937
Location: Devon, UK

PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 6:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The other thing with the phaser-G on the phaser boat is that it is effectively your only heavy weapon. While Mike is correct about its defensive potential, it is still the only weapon on the ship capable of dealing an overloaded photon's worth of damage, albeit only at close range - but it can be used every turn rather than every other turn. The Orion photon torpedo? Maybe....

Also it's the threat of that damage, too, that is useful. Nobody wants to get too close to a p-G armed ship, even if that weapon is percieved to be ony for defensive purposes Smile
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
storeylf
Fleet Captain


Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1836

PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mjwest wrote:
Fair enough.

But, to me, the point of the Ph-G is not actually its offensive potential. It is its defensive potential. A Ph-G is two dead drones (or, when desperate, a chance for four dead drones), and 7-8 points less on a plasma warhead.

The offensive potential is just a bonus.


I realise it is an excellent defensive weapon, but again in the games we've been playing (tourney rules) it doesn't seem worth it.

Whilst I don't use the BR in a tourney, it has 4 ph3s, 3 tractor, 9 ph1s, good speed, turn mode and stealth. Drone wise, I seem to be the person who quite likes mass drones, but having tried kzinti I'm struggling to find a squadron that can deliver a serious drone wave yet still be able to handle those races who laugh at drones. Therefore I'm not seeing being in a game where I think I had really spent those extra points on the PhG. Plasma seems to be quite popular, but it is not a big threat, either of the 2 main plasma races are going to lose a long range phaser shoot out so there is no reason to actively close to a point where plasma may be more of an issue. Not to mention in that squadron style game you are not unlikely to be staring at multiple incoming plasma S rather than 1, and a single phG just doesn't seem to give you that 'yeah I can take that head on' feeling.

Kang wrote:

The other thing with the phaser-G on the phaser boat is that it is effectively your only heavy weapon. While Mike is correct about its defensive potential, it is still the only weapon on the ship capable of dealing an overloaded photon's worth of damage, albeit only at close range - but it can be used every turn rather than every other turn. The Orion photon torpedo? Maybe....

Also it's the threat of that damage, too, that is useful. Nobody wants to get too close to a p-G armed ship, even if that weapon is percieved to be ony for defensive purposes Smile


[sarcasm]If someone thinks they don't want to get close and personal with an orion ship sporting 8-11 ph1s and a single Phg because of the phg then they are probably not going to be winning anyway.[/sarcasm]

I accept the PhG looked at in isolation is a great weapon, but I don't agree that is always a great weapon on a given ship for a given style of game, and if you were wanting heavy weapons you wouldn't be running a phaser boat. Swapping out a Ph1 for a PhG adds about 10% extra damage at very close range on the orion ships I like in a tourney style game (whilst giving up important VP and reducing mid-long range damage). An extra phG is not enough to tempt me to want to get close to the likes of LDR, Feds or Hydrans, they, quite simply, do close range killing better than the orion. Plasma chuckers can be out shot in a longer range duel, no need to make life awkward closing against the plasma, plus 3 Gorns are tough to approach to PhG range and against a Rom cloak the PhG is worse than a Ph1. Klingons are in some way the hardest to deal with, but they can't really outshoot you at range and they really need to O/L at range 8 or less to beat you off, which gives them energy issues compared to an orion as they try to out manouver you for that shot.


All subjective of course, and like I say I am probably biased by my own personal experience playing with the tourney rules. I may even be suffering from a bias based on only having played against a few different people, maybe if I was playing against other people with different styles of play, racial preferences or tactics I would change my mind. But as it is I can ony see a very limited number of occasions where I would be thinking that the PhG would be such a game changer that I'd rather just bank the extra VP.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
HappyDaze
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 21 Apr 2010
Posts: 51
Location: Tacoma, WA

PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I fought a battle against the Orions tonight. The Orions used PH-1s in most of the option mounts and highlighted how silly it is to take anything else. The PH-1 boats are way too powerful for their points considering that getting maximum effect from them doesn't require the Orion to double the engines and thus ensuring that Stealth stays intact. This means that what is undeniably the most efficient weapon in the game (excepting the PH-G at close range) is made doubly attractive for the Orions. This screams broken to me since they can be placed in almost every mount (there are only a few that can't hold a PH-1).

I used Klingons in a 500 point battle, and I was outmatched in firepower, defenses, and maneuverability - I didn't have a single advantage, which makes the point values seem really off to me. Since I know that there won't be any official fix to this - indeed many here will argue that it hasn't changed in 30 years so why change now - this game is probably going back on my shelf and not getting played again. If I do play it again, Orions will be barred from using phasers in non-wing mounts just as we've totally barred the use of the LDR after seeing how abusive they can be.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
storeylf
Fleet Captain


Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1836

PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I fought a battle against the Orions tonight. The Orions used PH-1s in most of the option mounts and highlighted how silly it is to take anything else. The PH-1 boats are way too powerful for their points considering that getting maximum effect from them doesn't require the Orion to double the engines and thus ensuring that Stealth stays intact. This means that what is undeniably the most efficient weapon in the game (excepting the PH-G at close range) is made doubly attractive for the Orions. This screams broken to me since they can be placed in almost every mount (there are only a few that can't hold a PH-1).

I used Klingons in a 500 point battle, and I was outmatched in firepower, defenses, and maneuverability - I didn't have a single advantage, which makes the point values seem really off to me. Since i know that there won't be any fix to this - indeed many here will argue that it hasn't changed in 30 years so why change now - this game is going back on my shelf and not getting played again.


Not sure whether you are being sarcastic there or serious, 1 bad game and you are never playing it again? Some matchups are just bad, and some games just go badly even where the matchup wasn't bad.

Well played orions are tough. Then again the same can be said of other races. The Orion Ph1 boat isn't some over powered uber ship, it is however flexible. The Ph1 is energy efficient, that doesn't make it some wonder weapon. It does good up-close damage but not as much as other close range ships, it does decent mid/long range damage but not as much as other long range ships. No weapon requires an orion to double engines, ships like the BR (the original topic ship) are not exactly swimming in energy even with Ph1s - yes you can just hit speed 24 and fire all Ph1s, but if you want to do anything else you have issues, ph3s, tractors, transporters, HET, decel, accel, EM etc will all force you to rethink what you are doing unless you double engines.

You don't say what the actual forces were in your 500 pt game, but having played and fought both sides using 450 pt tourney rules I don't see how you are outmatched in any category you mention. Firepower, defense and manouverabilty are fairly similiar between klingons and ph1 orions. As I intimated earlier I think this is about the hardest race for an all Ph1 orion fleet to plan for. There is no clear advanatge to either side at any range, whereas against other races the orion has a clear reason to try and maintain a certain range or play a certain style, that doesn't really apply against klingons. Both races use good long range 1 turn weapons and manouverability, neither side excels at close range crunch, both races tend to have somewhat internally fragile ships. The orion can usually just edge out a similar klingon vessel in average damage dealt terms (due to stealth) - before dealing with drones, and whilst the orion shouldn't have an issue handling the drones it does mean that he giving up something (speed or damage) to do it. The Klingon will often have a slight edge in power per turn (unless the orion doubles). I can ony assume that your feeling was more down to the specific ships that each side happen to choose (as opposed to the races genrally), or that your opponent was lucky or simply a better player.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Federation Commander Forum Index -> Tactics All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
Page 1 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group