Evasive Maneuvers proposal

[mjwest]

currently as you say EM is declared in the defensive fire phase.
if this is correct why would you need to change it? the photon races can decide not to fire then and not waste the shots if the opponent has declared EM. or they can fire when they get the earlier chance.
leaving it to come in after the offensive fire phase is a bit drastic IMO as it negates the point of going EM and you could be dead before you even get there and Em becomes a pointless waste of energy.

But the point is that there is no earlier chance to fire. Not really, anyway.

And it does not negate the use of going EM. The point of EM is to gain "cover" when in a disadvantageous firing position. Its use is not negated, but merely pushed into a more planned usage.

So, for example, instead of closing to, say, range 4 (or 2) with the photon ship, then suddenly declaring EM, you would need to plan it out a little more and declare it at, say, range 5. You are still forcing the opponent to take a disadvantaged shot at the range of your choosing, but now the opponent at least has the chance to take that shot.

And EM is not a pointless waste of energy. If using it won't buy you anything, you don't have to use it, and the energy is not wasted. If you do use it, you know what you are getting into and you are getting your energy's worth (the +2 shift).

Ok, maybe EM is an emergency crutch to prop up a botched approach. Also maybe it's a valid tactic for a race to get in closer without being hit [as badly] as if they were not under EM. Whatever.

Yes, the proposed rule change would severely curtail the use of EM as an emergency crutch. However, it has absolutely *no* effect on using EM to approach "under cover".

Absolutely no planned use of EM is affected at all by the proposed rule change. The only thing that changes is the "emergency crutch" that Kang mentions. Planned usage is still completely valid, available and effective.

Also, EM is firmly established in SFB. I don't have my rulebook with me [the trolley it's in is at home ] but I seem to remember it worked fine in that game. Granted, the ECM rules provided for counter-jamming, but still....

Comparing to SFB's EM to FC's EM is not very helpful, if you are arguing against the change. SFB's EM includes a delay between announcement and effect. (And, as an added bonus, the hostile ship can even tractor an EMing ship, forcing the EM to stop for the duration of the tractor.)

This proposed change is very much adding an SFB feature back into the rule.

[Savedfromwhat]

Mjwest: It seems, at least on the forums, you and juinior are the only two who are in favor of the EM change. This isn't a democracy but I think that is rather telling. Have you tried the change in play, or should it be something we are doing? I will be honest I am very new too this game and have never won, I am playing people who have played since launch and are SFB veterans too boot though. I find EM to be very helpful, but it is also an anchor since you can't fire for two impulses (save an Emerg Decel.).

I am not explaining myself well but basically it seems like this change is just another way of making the rules more complicated then they need to be. I like that when i declare something it happens immediately. I can see it know, I declare EM, my opponent alpha strikes, great he wasted his shot I took few internals, but now I either Emer. Decel. or I am forced too wait two full impulses before I can fire back. Basically my opponent is allowed to react to something that hasn't yet happened and my EM gives him two impulses of reprisal free movement...

[Sir Drake]

To me the problem is changing a rule that has been in play for 3 years, just because some people don't like it. That is a pain because you know it is going to come up for people who don't read these boards and have an old set of rules playing some one that does getting in to it over these changes of timing. my atitude it if some one has the energy to spend on EM exspect them to use it at the most inconvenent time for their opponent. like the HET, you work your way around behind a Fed and close in for a close up the kilt shot, know that if he has the juice he's going to HET and go heads up and ruin your day. Some one going to EM still has to 6 spend moves worth of energy, has 1 added to turn mode and you have 4 subpulses to manuver after he declares ending EM to get your self in position for your shot when he comes out of it. I have never used EM as a OMG move and I think that if some does use EM as a panic move its not going to save them in the long run. panic EM seam to me a good way to give all the initative to your opponent. It might save you for a little but in the end you are still dog meat.

In conclusion I don't see the need for it, and think the rules should stand as it is. Fed Comm has enough new rules comming in.I don't see the need to start changing the one we already have, changing rules after 3 years is messy and should be avoided.

[Kang]

In conclusion I don't see the need for it, and think the rules should stand as it is. Fed Comm has enough new rules comming in.I don't see the need to start changing the one we already have, changing rules after 3 years is messy and should be avoided.

I'd be inclined to agree - I don't think it's particularly broke, so we shouldn't particularly fix it.

[storeylf]

I'm in agreement with those saying no change, I don't want to see any change which involves announce then wait before it happens, no matter how minor - they are all getting in the way of streamlined play, such things eventually become a big list of things to track.

If anything were to change (and I don't see that it does yet) I would prefer it be something that kept EM happening at the point of announcement. e.g. make it +1 shift or change when you declare it.

[pinecone]

This brings up another rule change proposal I think is worth considering...

If the fed is smart (and he knows the klink is too), he won't waste his Free HET. He'll accelerate and drop suicide shuttles and drones behind him to discourage the klingon's pursuit. But The Klink will catch up soon, and all the fed can bring to bear is two ph-1s and two ph-3s. If Feds had the special arcs of being able to shoot The L-LF and R-RF Phasers directly to the rear, the klingon would have (at least) something to worry about when he attacked.

So how about giving the feds those arcs?

[Bolo_MK_XL]

Piney

If your referring to the CA, to change arcs you would have to change the engine mounts ---- thats why they have the arcs you see now ----

[Savedfromwhat]

The Fed CS has different Arcs like you want Pineycone.

[DNordeen]

How about this:

1) Declare & begin use of EM during Other Functions
2) Declare & end use of EM during Other Functions

This does 2 things

1) Limits the emergency use of EM and provides a final firing opportunity before EM without having the declare and wait issue.
2) Does away with the current confusion of waiting 2 impulses. This is always a confusing thing to teach, "I declared EM on Imp 5 so why can't I end on Imp 7? It's two impulses!" By starting and ending on the same function, it is less confusing and your opponent still has a full impulse of movement before the next weapons fire.

As for the order of things, I'd put "End EM" one step prior to "Begin EM" That way, a player can react to his opponent ending EM by declaring EM himself.

[jmt]

Since the current rule has been in play for 3 years and has been published in many rule books and after-action reports, I would suggest that the bar be set very high for allowing a change.

Other game systems have changed rules after the printed rule books have been out and it has had a detrimental effect on their sales - I'm specifically thinking of Confrontation 3.5 and the line of sight rule change.

If there was a significant body of evidence that the existing EM rule was broken (say numerous posts on this board and on the legacy board about "how borken EM is") the I might be inclined to agree to a change. However, with out that, I think that the EM rule should stand as is.

[silent bob]

And EM is not a pointless waste of energy. If using it won't buy you anything, you don't have to use it, and the energy is not wasted. If you do use it, you know what you are getting into and you are getting your energy's worth (the +2 shift).

didnt say it is. what i said is if you have to declare it in defensive firing and it comes in after offensive then it could become a pointless waste of energy due to the opponent getting to fire on you before you go evasive and then you not needing to be evasive as hes fired everything anyway.

[pinecone]

Piney

If your referring to the CA, to change arcs you would have to change the engine mounts ---- thats why they have the arcs you see now ----

In SFB, The CA can shoot the LF-L and RF-R arc phasers into the hex row directly behind the ship. They were made to fire LS and RS, but can't because they would hit the enigies if firing into anywhere besides that, other than directly behind the vessel (through the space between the engines).

[mjwest]

So how about giving the feds those arcs?

That hasn't been done, but it has been discussed (along with at least some of the Klingon arcs). I don't know that it will be done, however.

The Fed CS has different Arcs like you want Pineycone.

Not quite. What Pinecone is talking about is the ability, in SFB, for the phasers on the Fed CA to fire in the hex row directly behind the ship. It doesn't get the full LS/RS arcs of the CS and BC, but still gets to fire down the rear hex row.

And, as an aside, if I was given the option between the CA and CS, I would probably take the CS each time. It is an absolutely disgusting ship. (Which is great if you are flying the Feds.)

didnt say it is. what i said is if you have to declare it in defensive firing and it comes in after offensive then it could become a pointless waste of energy due to the opponent getting to fire on you before you go evasive and then you not needing to be evasive as hes fired everything anyway.

Not necessarily. What it really means is that you forced your opponent to fire way before he wanted to in order to avoid the shift. That is far from a "waste of energy".

Also, it bears pointing out that you also get a chance to respond to your opponent's fire. The firing opportunity is an opportunity for *both* sides.

[Mike]

I'd like to hear the reason(s) why EM was put in the rules the way it was in the first place.

I can see the points that mjwest has made, but I am very reluctant to support changing rules after 3 years of being published and played unless there is a very good and overwhelming reason for doing so.

[pinecone]

What do you mean about the CS being disgusting?

And in the space aomeba battle, The CA is better.