Evasive Maneuvers proposal

pinecone · Post by **pinecone** » Thu Aug 14, 2008 1:52 am

Bolo_MK_XL wrote:Piney ---

You can use Prox in any game you play vs me ---
Just save enough energy to EM while I pound on you at range 1 or 2 for a turn and 1/2 while you reload ----

I'd probably only use one at a time, three should be enough for keeping you afriad of getting close to my ship.

junior · Post by **junior** » Thu Aug 14, 2008 9:12 pm

Proximity photons only do four points of damage each. You're not going to be doing much to the other guy with only one...

Kang · Post by **Kang** » Thu Aug 14, 2008 9:25 pm

Yes but Piney loves his photons....

pinecone · Post by **pinecone** » Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:22 am

I'll be doing as much as he is sabre-dancing me (with all those ph-1's)

DNordeen · Post by **DNordeen** » Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:29 pm

I don't use EM much since I lose tracking on my drones. I don't have a problem with the concept of changing to do away with abusive EM, but I was hoping everything could be moved to other functions instead of having a delay. However, the delay's not really that big of a deal since it's only the offensive fire stage. It's not that complicated...declare EM, everyone fire, EM now effective.

missmatronic · Post by **missmatronic** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:32 am

Gee Gang, you kept me up til the wee hours picking apart this string.

Here's what I want to know:

Say I declare EM, after Defensive Fire, and I pay for it. Now its the direct fire phase. Here's the moment of excitement and confusion for me. So since EM doesn't take EFFECT unit the END of Direct Fire, does that mean I am NOT prohibited from firing myself before EM benefits in fact commence?

If that is correct, I'm wondering if that was actually considered before modifying the rule.

Furthermore, If that is so,those who had a "grievance" with EM as it originally stood may have had second thoughts about this issue.

Being able to shoot at someone just after declaring EM seems like a too good of a deal to me. Especially from the point of view of someone who was annoyed by the original procedure. Im not so sure this is the "fix" you really want.

DrFaustus · Post by **DrFaustus** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:45 am

I would have thought since it is the game designer who altered the rule he would understand what the changes would entel.

And yeah you can still use Direct-fire weapons, but not seeking (Since that happens after DF phase.

Kang · Post by **Kang** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:45 am

missmatronic wrote:Say I declare EM, after Defensive Fire, and I pay for it. Now its the direct fire phase. Here's the moment of excitement and confusion for me. So since EM doesn't take EFFECT unit the END of Direct Fire, does that mean I am NOT prohibited from firing myself before EM benefits in fact commence?

That's exactly right. See OGREAI's detailed breakdown earlier in this thread.

missmatronic wrote:Im not so sure this is the "fix" you really want.

As far as I understand it, this is not what it was supposed to fix. It was a problem with Romulans dropping cloak, launching plasma and then going evasive before their target could reply. Seeking weapons are not as badly penalised by this because they will hit EMing ships, hence the comments about it penalising races who do not have major seeking weapons capability - Hydrans, Tholians, Seltorians, Feds - and Lyrans to some extent but their ESGs ignore EM.

missmatronic · Post by **missmatronic** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:44 pm

I appreciate the reply. I won't go into details but I suspect this may be just trading in one "headache" for another. I'm going to purposefully in future play try to exploit this new procedure in order to see how it may be "abused".

I forsee some devious soul will make hell for others in the future and someone will propose changing it again.

I don't think this change is for the worse but hear me out. I really think it could possibly empower someone proficient in timing their EMs. It could make for the effective use of Pseudo-Romulan tactics by virtually any faction.

BTW, if EM is initiated, then canceled - may you initiate it again in the same turn? Regardless of the answer, Ill bet deft performance will yield some flashy interstellar boxing.

mjwest · Post by **mjwest** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:56 pm

Yes, the ship about to EM may fire in that Direct Fire Phase.

Yes, this was considered and is thought to be a feature, not a bug. (And not a "feature", but an actual feature.)

You may only start EM once a turn. Also, once you declare starting it, you are stuck in it for two full impulses (unless, of course, the turn ends or you Emergency Decelerate).

Finally, it the point of the change was to stop the "I EM at the last second because you outmaneuvered me" type tactics. The cloak/EM thing was just a really extreme example of this, not the only issue.

missmatronic · Post by **missmatronic** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:03 pm

Ya know, I'm starting to get excited about the new EM. I wasn't too keen on it at first. Dr. Frankenstein was mighty sorry after he made his pet monster

Savedfromwhat · Post by **Savedfromwhat** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:37 pm

mjwest wrote:The cloak/EM thing was just a really extreme example of this, not the only issue.

The guys I play with see the cloaking device as more of a liability then a tactical advantage and sadly so do I. Perhaps I am playing it wrong but I am very sad to see this tactic go away. It just seems that the cloaking device is not as effective as it was in SFB yet all the ships are still pointed the same. Romulans do not do well in my gaming group...sigh, I love Romulans though

missmatronic · Post by **missmatronic** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:50 pm

I cant see why being able to launch plasma immediatley after fading in doesnt still have advantages. Romulans work well in numbers if some are cloaked and others aren't. In my experience, in squad engagements it takes a bit of courage because you may have to sacrifice a ship in order to make some strikes. It's like chess with Romulans sometimes.

I really shouldnt have gone off topic but I thought a little of my "philosophy" might help you play a fleet you are fond of, "Saved".

Sir Drake · Post by **Sir Drake** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 12:28 am

[quote="mjwest"]
Finally, it the point of the change was to stop the "I EM at the last second because you outmaneuvered me" type tactics. The cloak/EM thing was just a really extreme example of this, not the only issue.[/quote]

I still don't understand how that tactic breaks the game so that it needs a fix other than with plasma. When some goes to EM at close range it is not a get out of jail free card. It might delay some damage, but he spent 6 moves worth of energy and has 1 added to his turn mode, he can't fire weapons or HET and you get a impulse of movement before he comes out to make sure to have a nice shot waiting for him. if he stays under EM you take you best shot with singe turn weapons on impulse 8 and ride him till he drops. I don't know but with the guys I have played with EM has been balanced in reward/ risk and never saved anyone who did it as a panic move. If you arn't thinking several impulses ahead you won't be around long.

junior · Post by **junior** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 5:21 pm

Sir Drake wrote: I still don't understand how that tactic breaks the game so that it needs a fix other than with plasma. When some goes to EM at close range it is not a get out of jail free card. It might delay some damage, but he spent 6 moves worth of energy and has 1 added to his turn mode, he can't fire weapons or HET and you get a impulse of movement before he comes out to make sure to have a nice shot waiting for him. if he stays under EM you take you best shot with singe turn weapons on impulse 8 and ride him till he drops. I don't know but with the guys I have played with EM has been balanced in reward/ risk and never saved anyone who did it as a panic move. If you arn't thinking several impulses ahead you won't be around long.

It depends.

If you're playing against a Klingon, for instance, then the extra energy isn't an issue. All of his weapons are "pay when needed", so if you managed to slip around and get off of his #5 shield, then he's probably going to have lots of extra energy (because he hasn't fired this turn) and the movement cost won't be an issue. His excellent turn mode will mean that even with the turn mode penalties he still has a good chance of turning at the same rate you do. And if he's moving faster than you and it's still the middle of the turn, then he's got time to get out of range before you get a firing opportunity. Conversely, if you're moving faster than him, then you may (depending on how close to him you are) need to pay to decelerate every impulse to keep from overshooting (which would put HIM in the superior firing position), and your turn mode may very well be worse than his allowing him to outmaneuver you.

There are a lot of variables involved.