stacking

rockyr · Post by **rockyr** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 5:01 pm

How much would it hurt the game mechanics if stacking were not permitted in minature games on hexmaps. Prohibiting stacking deals with physical logisitics issues, and may promote more tactics fleet formations than the "how can I get my whole fleet to act as does one ship?" by stacking up techniques.

The hexless system takes care of that, but also complicates the mchanics beyond the desires of my 'gaming club.

Before I introduce such a "house rule" (which I am always reluctant to do anyway) I wanted to see if others had experience with this, and if the designers had some objection I have not foreseen.

Rocky
________
WATER BONG

Sgt_G · Post by **Sgt_G** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:53 pm

From a purely real-world point of view, there's no reason you can't stack ships. A hex is 10,000 KM, or ten million meters, whereas a starship is no more than 500 meters long (Fed DN = 320 meters).

The only way to explain why they couldn't stack is to claim that the warp bubble it thousands of kilometers across, and then come up with some Babble-Science behind the techno-babble of what happens to two (or more) warp bubbles interact. But then how do ships dock, for example?

From a game-balance stance, you then have to figure out what happens when two ships try to stack into the same hex. If you don't allow stacking at all, you end up with messed up "tactics" where you can box your enemy in, forcing them into a drone / plasma swarm (or planet!) they could have otherwise out-maneuvered.

Dal Downing · Post by **Dal Downing** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:21 pm

I was going to take the time when I got home tonight to look up the hard facts but I see Garth started the party early

What I was going to point out is that the Mini's are not to scale with the Map Hexes. I thought I heard some place the figures are roughly that that 3 inch CA sitting on the table is actually inside a hex that if it was to scale would be over a Mile Across. (You could line up 21,120 Miniatures end to end and they would still be in the Hex.)

While in FedCom there are no Stacking limits on units there is a Defacto limit on Stacking by the Firing rules, which state that only 3 units can fire out of a hex at one target in one impulse. (Yeah I know people use rolling vollies..)

Now I have personally always played with minis so that all the minis must stay on the table. But by the rule I could use poker chips stacked under the base of one mini to represent multiple ships inside of a 1 inch circle but if I did that what is the point in painting all those beautiful mins? If you are going to allow stacking using minis why not just use the Miniture Rules and use the 1" Counters and be done with it? When someone makes the move to minis they should accept a slight change in game play to allow for the minis, in my case that was no stacking. In your group you and your players will have to decide.

PS: In the early days of SFB there was a tool that limited stacking because ships had a Exploding Damge value and a if you took out a cruiser in the middle of a stack it explosive force could set off your Frigates which add their explosive strength and so on and so forth. (I once saw 27 units go up in one explosion.) That rules was changed because it seemed to harsh. Which in turn allowed the rise of the Super Stack. The 3 ship firing rule is a attempt by Fed Com to reverse this alittle.

Scoutdad · Post by **Scoutdad** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:24 pm

Dal, I have a 6-inch plexiglass hex on three four inch long, rubber tipped legs. Wehn multiple ships occupry the same hex, we place it on the map over the hex in question and then place the appropriate ships on it.
Unless it's a really large fleet passing through, this takes care of the situation - and allows us to accurately show facing shields / arcs between the various ships that are colocated in the hex.

Mike · Post by **Mike** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:42 pm

You mean SFB doesn't have the explosion rule anymore! All I have are the old Commander's rules, so I didn't know about that.

I think it would still be a good idea. It would definitely force players to spread out their ships.

Scoutdad · Post by **Scoutdad** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 1:21 am

There is still an explosion rule... it just has a reduced effect. Each ship has an explosion strength in it's Master Ship Chart. That's the explosion strength - period. No more adding to the strength from armed Torps, armed fighters, etc.

Dal Downing · Post by **Dal Downing** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 6:06 am

Cool Ideal Scoutdad I will have to see about rigging something like that up for when I teach people but was refering to the concept of superstacking with minis. I don't do it. If I go through the trouble to paint a mini I keep it visable the whole time. What I think Rocky was saying is his group wants to stack there cruisers which means they would only have one mini on the table. If someone was to do that they would need something like a Poker chip under the Mini's Base to show multiple ships.

Kang · Post by **Kang** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 7:02 am

Sgt_G wrote:But then how do ships dock, for example?

They drop out of warp first

Kang · Post by **Kang** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:01 am

I have a piece of old floor covering about 2 feet across, that just happened to be patterned in 4" hexes. A bit of black paint and the hexes picked out in silver, and then I have a 'mini-map' that I can lift the models on to when they either get in too close or into the same hex.

Not that I've used it yet; the minis we use can fit two to a hex [if necessary] because the bases are very thin - see some of my battle reports for photos. But still it's there gathering dust, on the off-chance we'll need it....

Wolverin61 · Post by **Wolverin61** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:21 pm

Scoutdad wrote:Dal, I have a 6-inch plexiglass hex on three four inch long, rubber tipped legs. Wehn multiple ships occupry the same hex, we place it on the map over the hex in question and then place the appropriate ships on it.
Unless it's a really large fleet passing through, this takes care of the situation - and allows us to accurately show facing shields / arcs between the various ships that are colocated in the hex.

I've been thinking of something like that myself, so that's a good idea

Scoutdad · Post by **Scoutdad** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:28 pm

Great minds thnk alike...

Scoutdad · Post by **Scoutdad** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:29 pm

"think"

Obviously they can't type... but in all other respects, the previous comment is true.

mjwest · Post by **mjwest** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:25 am

Use the "Edit" button. Revisionism is great. No one has to know you made a mistake ... (Especially when it was only a minute before the mistake was realized.)

[Not a "correction" or anything. Just a suggestion ...]

Wolverin61 · Post by **Wolverin61** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:57 am

mjwest wrote:Use the "Edit" button. Revisionism is great. No one has to know you made a mistake ... (Especially when it was only a minute before the mistake was realized.)

[Not a "correction" or anything. Just a suggestion ...]

True, except for the edit note at the end of the post. Of course, it could have been an omission, not a mistake. Yeah, that's the ticket....