Poll: What would you pay for PDFs?

djdood · Post by **djdood** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:50 pm

Tim -

I wasn't trying to pick a fight (and I don't think I did, judging from your well-thought-out reply). SVC is the only one who could (or should) articulate his views on the online discounters. I merely wanted to point out that strong opinions on them had been stated before (some of which I think you echo in your reply).

Thank you for being civil in disagreeing. The world (and especially the internet) could use more civil debate.

mjwest · Post by **mjwest** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:53 pm

MajerBlundor wrote:Now Atlanta is down to a couple of small shops (none near me) and Hobbytown which only carries "mainstream" games (eg 40K and the Euros). The rest (War Room, Sword of the Phoenix, Game Factory, etc.) have folded due to mismanagement, poor customer service, and online discounters. From that perspective I agree that online discounters harm the hobby since there are fewer B&M stores where new players can be recruited. And customers can't pick up and "touch and feel" new products.

FWIW, that is the crux of Steve's arguments against online discounters.

MajerBlundor · Post by **MajerBlundor** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:16 am

djdood wrote:Tim -

I wasn't trying to pick a fight (and I don't think I did, judging from your well-thought-out reply). SVC is the only one who could (or should) articulate his views on the online discounters. I merely wanted to point out that strong opinions on them had been stated before (some of which I think you echo in your reply).

Thank you for being civil in disagreeing. The world (and especially the internet) could use more civil debate.

I didn't think you were picking a "fight" at all! If I did (and if I didn't care about ADB) then I wouldn't have taken the time to write what I did. I would have just "blown it off" so to speak. But your point was valid and I think important enough to address in detail.

I was not around this forum when these issue were discussed previously, so please do forgive me if I've beaten a previously dead horse!

Tim

MajerBlundor · Post by **MajerBlundor** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:47 am

mjwest wrote:
MajerBlundor wrote:Now Atlanta is down to a couple of small shops (none near me) and Hobbytown which only carries "mainstream" games (eg 40K and the Euros). The rest (War Room, Sword of the Phoenix, Game Factory, etc.) have folded due to mismanagement, poor customer service, and online discounters. From that perspective I agree that online discounters harm the hobby since there are fewer B&M stores where new players can be recruited. And customers can't pick up and "touch and feel" new products.
FWIW, that is the crux of Steve's arguments against online discounters.

And I mostly agree with Steve if that's his position! Thus my previous attempts to faithfully "pay where I play".

I still do that with Hobbytown when I can. We meet there on the first Saturday of each month and I buy paints, glue, WH40K stuff, etc. there. But they're not setup to handle special orders very well (they've completely muffed a few of mine) so a few months ago I turned to online discount shops and I've been very impressed with both the service and price.

All that being said, perhaps we older gamers (I'm over 40) need to rethink these things a bit. If the reality is that FLGS shops as we knew them (eg my beloved Hobby Chest) can't compete in this new environment then we need to think differently. At Hobbytown we aggressively recruit new people constantly. I'm not shy about inviting complete strangers to jump in our monthly games.

So what needs to change?

1. The FLGS needs to be different. It needs to be run as a business and not as a hobby. Too many FLGS owners are not business people and don't understand customer service at all!

2. The FLGS needs to see its market as not only the local area but the world as well. It needs be both an FLGS and one of those online discount houses. In fact, that sort of operation does exist, even for historical miniatures!

3. The FLGS needs to be smart about what it carries. The owner may LOVE 15mm Napoleonics but just how many can the local market absorb? I've seen so many FLGSs filled with yellowing Minifig packages from the 1980s. Retail shops measure health in "churn" and dollars per sq. foot per unit time and I've seen way to many FLGSs that look like museums of wargame history! The whole value chain, from manufacturer to retailer to consumer needs to become more responsive.

In that respect online shops are actually helping companies such as ADB. If it were left to FLGSs alone, ADB might be defunct a few years from now. But those online folks provide a streamlined way for guys like me to find and order ADB products reliably. The question for small ops such as ADB is at what point and under what circumstance is it worth it to do only direct sales or are the online retailers their best friends for now. I have no idea! I do know that the old ways of doing business are no longer viable.

Guys like me may love old shops such as (the now defunct) Hobby Chest and War Room. I tried to support them but no matter how much money I threw their way they just couldn't operate like real businesses! They were hobbies to the owners! The internet makes that impossible today.

As far as recruiting goes, the onus is on us, the veteran gamers. I've seen way too many veteran gamers in public settings play on as an interested bystander gazes at their neat toys. We probably tend to be introverts but we need to come out of our collective shells some time!

And there is the internet. Local groups need to use it aggressively and effectively to recruit and promote their events. Too often an FLGS just lists "Thursday is Warhammer Night" on their web page and then leaves it at that. Thursday rolls around and nobody shows up. Yawn! If we want players we veteran gamers need to step up and provide ACTIVE leadership!

Tim

Davyj0427 · Post by **Davyj0427** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:22 pm

I call Hijack! Interesting topic guys really, but you should start a new thread and continue to discuss it there.

Back on topic I voted the $25 dollars because, the question was what is the most you would spend on the PDF. While I would love for it to be $10 I would pay $25. This making the most economic sense for me. That being said if I suddenly came into some money I would be happy to pay the $100 for the pre-printed cards. I just wonder if I would use all the card in that package, so being able to print the ones that I use more would be great. Also I would save my limited gaming budget for War and Peace, and Federation Admiral.

MajerBlundor · Post by **MajerBlundor** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:45 pm

Davyj0427 wrote:I call Hijack! Interesting topic guys really, but you should start a new thread and continue to discuss it there.

That's probably true, sorry about that!

I guess I saw them as related since both issues go to ADB's business approach. In an ideal world ADB would be able to offer printed cards at a price all gamers could afford and PDFs for those who prefer that flexibility.

But having worked on core DRM technology it's a really tough nut to crack. Too weak and it doesn't stop piracy. Too intrusive and it annoys legit customers.

Post by **Steve Cole** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:35 pm

While this isn't the topic for on line discounters, I can tell you...

1. They're bad for brick-and-mortar stores and slowly driving them out of business.

2. They're bad for ADB because they're bad for stores.

3. They compete unfairly with ADB's on-line sales. We sell at discounts to wholesalers to support brick-and-mortar stores because those stores recruit new players and develop player groups. The pond scum that is on line discounters do NOTHING for the industry or for ADB.

4. Online discounters will eventually either be shut down (more and more companies are taking steps to block wholesalers from selling to them) or the online discounters will shut down the stores and that shuts down the distribution system and THAT shuts down the online discounters. it's basically a suicide pact good for nobody.

MajerBlundor · Post by **MajerBlundor** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 3:22 pm