Yeah, but that's not really what I'm asking about - earlier in this thread we talked about when a ship attempts to tractor another, the 'victim' can simultaneously attempt to tractor his attacker; the winner is the owner of a shiny new tractor beam.
So the question is can I do that later in the turn?
Tractors and turn modes
Moderators: mjwest, Albiegamer
Not trying to dredge up an old thread, but this is a legitimate tractor question.
How does a drone's position change when the drone is tractored prior to impact 1 hex away from its target ship when its target ship turns?
I got the answer about impacted drones from earlier in this thread and from the compiled questions thread. Here it is:
Example (using the standard SFB map):
A ship is facing A in hex 1107.
A drone targeted on the ship is in hex 1007 facing A.
It is at the end of an impulse and the ship tractors the drone.
During the next impulse the ship turns in direction B and moves to the next hex (hex 1206).
If the drone "swings around", it would wind up in hex 1106 (and it would have moved 2 hexes).
1. If this takes place, in what direction would the drone now be facing: direction A or direction B?
2. If the drone does not "swing around", but maintains a relative position to the tractoring ship just like another tractored ship would maintain, would its new position be hex 1107?
3. If the answer to #2 is "yes", then would the drone's heading/facing still be in direction A?
Using the First Missions map, the ship's initial position would be hex 56, facing A. The drone's initial position would be hex 46, facing A. When the ship turns and moves, it would then be in hex 65, facing B.
I don't have my rulebook handy, so please forgive this if it is given as an example in the rules.
How does a drone's position change when the drone is tractored prior to impact 1 hex away from its target ship when its target ship turns?
I got the answer about impacted drones from earlier in this thread and from the compiled questions thread. Here it is:
Based on the comment that drones are treated differently, my first guess would be that the drone would "swing around" and remain on whichever shield it was adjacent to when it was tractored. I would also say that the drone would maintain the same facing relative to the target ship.Q: If a ship tractors a drone in the defensive fire phase, I understand that the drone remains on the same shield as the ship maneuvers during combat. In effect, the drone rotates with the ship as it turns. When you tractor an enemy vessel and subsequently move, does the same principle apply, swinging the enemy around as you turn? Or does the enemy ship remain in the same direction from your ship throughout your maneuvers?
A: The ship remains in the same direction. Ships are much bigger than drones and are treated differently.
Example (using the standard SFB map):
A ship is facing A in hex 1107.
A drone targeted on the ship is in hex 1007 facing A.
It is at the end of an impulse and the ship tractors the drone.
During the next impulse the ship turns in direction B and moves to the next hex (hex 1206).
If the drone "swings around", it would wind up in hex 1106 (and it would have moved 2 hexes).
1. If this takes place, in what direction would the drone now be facing: direction A or direction B?
2. If the drone does not "swing around", but maintains a relative position to the tractoring ship just like another tractored ship would maintain, would its new position be hex 1107?
3. If the answer to #2 is "yes", then would the drone's heading/facing still be in direction A?
Using the First Missions map, the ship's initial position would be hex 56, facing A. The drone's initial position would be hex 46, facing A. When the ship turns and moves, it would then be in hex 65, facing B.
I don't have my rulebook handy, so please forgive this if it is given as an example in the rules.
The answer is number 2:
Just like another ship, if the drone (at range one) "swung" around the turning ship - it would effectively be obtaining a free hex of movement... this does not sit well with Mr. Newton.
As for facing... the drone retains the same facing it had prior to the manuever... i.e., in this example - facing A.
The reason the "impacted" drone rotates with the ship is due to the simplified, 8 Impulse turns in Federation Commander.
In SFB, where you have 32 discrete impulses and the opportunity to fire in each one, a drone that hits a ship has it's damaged resolved immediately and you don't worry about "impacted" drones as they blow up and go away immediately.
In Federation Commnader, a drone that impacts on Impulse 4, sub-pulse 2 isn't resolved until two sub-pulses later... even though it actually hit the ship on 4-2.
Just like another ship, if the drone (at range one) "swung" around the turning ship - it would effectively be obtaining a free hex of movement... this does not sit well with Mr. Newton.
As for facing... the drone retains the same facing it had prior to the manuever... i.e., in this example - facing A.
The reason the "impacted" drone rotates with the ship is due to the simplified, 8 Impulse turns in Federation Commander.
In SFB, where you have 32 discrete impulses and the opportunity to fire in each one, a drone that hits a ship has it's damaged resolved immediately and you don't worry about "impacted" drones as they blow up and go away immediately.
In Federation Commnader, a drone that impacts on Impulse 4, sub-pulse 2 isn't resolved until two sub-pulses later... even though it actually hit the ship on 4-2.
Commander, Battlegroup Murfreesboro
Department Head, ACTASF
Department Head, ACTASF
Impacted seeking weapons that have been tractored stay "stuck" to the shield they impacted regardless of how the tractoring ship moves. No one else can tractor the drone.
Seeking weapons that are tractored prior to impact are treated like "ships"*. In this case, the seeking weapon will maintain its same relative position in relationship to the tractoring ship. Likewise, someone else *can* engage in a tractor auction to contest the tractor link.
So, for an example. A ship ends its impulse one hex from a drone seeking it. The ship is facing A, and the drone is in direction A of the ship (i.e. off its #1 shield) and has a facing of D. The ship tractors the drone. During the next impulse, the ship turns to the right. At this point the drone remains in direction A from the ship, but is now facing the ship's #6 shield since the ship is facing direction B. The drone still has a facing of D. In fact, as long as the tractor is maintained, the rone will always be in direction A from the ship, and will always maintain a facing of D.
[*]There is one main difference between tractoring a ship (or bases) and tractoring some other object (i.e. drone, shuttle, wreckage, "puck", crystal, etc.): A ship may tractor more than one, and may be tractored by another ship and maintain those links. That is not true with ship-to-ship tractors (5D5c).
(Which is all a long-winded way of saying Scoutdad is correct.
)
Seeking weapons that are tractored prior to impact are treated like "ships"*. In this case, the seeking weapon will maintain its same relative position in relationship to the tractoring ship. Likewise, someone else *can* engage in a tractor auction to contest the tractor link.
So, for an example. A ship ends its impulse one hex from a drone seeking it. The ship is facing A, and the drone is in direction A of the ship (i.e. off its #1 shield) and has a facing of D. The ship tractors the drone. During the next impulse, the ship turns to the right. At this point the drone remains in direction A from the ship, but is now facing the ship's #6 shield since the ship is facing direction B. The drone still has a facing of D. In fact, as long as the tractor is maintained, the rone will always be in direction A from the ship, and will always maintain a facing of D.
[*]There is one main difference between tractoring a ship (or bases) and tractoring some other object (i.e. drone, shuttle, wreckage, "puck", crystal, etc.): A ship may tractor more than one, and may be tractored by another ship and maintain those links. That is not true with ship-to-ship tractors (5D5c).
(Which is all a long-winded way of saying Scoutdad is correct.
)
Federation Commander Answer Guy
Thanks for the clarification guys!
I guess one could say that even though there is no rotation of tractored objects in FC, there can be rotation of tractoring objects.
Has a tactics note ever been written about this?
Or is this so basic a principle that it needs no further elaboration and its possible consequences are too obvious???
I guess one could say that even though there is no rotation of tractored objects in FC, there can be rotation of tractoring objects.
Has a tactics note ever been written about this?
Or is this so basic a principle that it needs no further elaboration and its possible consequences are too obvious???
A question on the idea of duelling tractor attempts.
Ship A declares a tractor attempt on Ship B; Ship B responds with a 'me, too' tractor attempt on Ship A and an auction follows. Ship A bids more than Ship B, so Ship A owns the shiny new tractor link.
Does Ship B's tractor beam still count as having been used this turn, even though his link was not established?
Ship A declares a tractor attempt on Ship B; Ship B responds with a 'me, too' tractor attempt on Ship A and an auction follows. Ship A bids more than Ship B, so Ship A owns the shiny new tractor link.
Does Ship B's tractor beam still count as having been used this turn, even though his link was not established?
Why would ship B even want to establish a tractor on ship A? The ship that has expended the most energy for movement will control the movement...it doesn't matter whose tractor it is.
If B has expended more energy than A and A wants to tractor B, then B should let A do the tractor. B will control movement anyway.
If A realizes the mistake and drops the tractor, then B can establish a tractor of its own.
If A has used more energy than B, then B would not want to put a tractor on A in order to control movement, only to slow down A. But if A has put a tractor on B, then why would B want to tractor A. A will be slowed down and B will not have used energy to do it.
If B has expended more energy than A and A wants to tractor B, then B should let A do the tractor. B will control movement anyway.
If A realizes the mistake and drops the tractor, then B can establish a tractor of its own.
If A has used more energy than B, then B would not want to put a tractor on A in order to control movement, only to slow down A. But if A has put a tractor on B, then why would B want to tractor A. A will be slowed down and B will not have used energy to do it.
Mike
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Sandpaper gets the job done, but makes for a lot of friction.
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Sandpaper gets the job done, but makes for a lot of friction.
Good questions, but it was more to do with the original tactical context which is a little complex to go in to here. Basically it is to do with who controls the link itself, not the movement; that was what was important at the time.
The question simply remains, does a tractor which failed a duelling tractor atttempt count as having been used?
I myself think that it would, since it would indeed count as such if it had simply been a tractor-vs-negative tractor auction.
The question simply remains, does a tractor which failed a duelling tractor atttempt count as having been used?
I myself think that it would, since it would indeed count as such if it had simply been a tractor-vs-negative tractor auction.
Ah, of course. It uses the energy too, because it's an auction, therefore it must use the tractor. Thanks everyone for the helpmjwest wrote:It uses the tractor and the energy. And, since it is not "negative tractor" it does not remain until the end of the turn for use against other tractor attempts.