Strategies for all races

storeylf · Post by **storeylf** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 12:51 am

junior wrote: Smart Klingons don't let that happen. That's the whole point behind "saberdancing" - you use your superior maneuverability to keep the range open and whittle down the ship that your opponent is flying while staying well outside the range of your opponent's shorter-ranged weaponry.

Thats why I bolded the 'IF'. However when it comes to keeping the range open, manouverability doesn't mean much against a speed 32 ship, you can outmanouver it, not outrun it. And if you are running you are not shooting the disrupters or ph1s. Plasma ships are not feds who are both holding torps and wanting another 16 for overload power when they get close. Fs start armed and free to hold, and Ss cost 2 to hold. There is no further power needed to fire them. The gorn BC mentioned earlier can go 32 fire all plasma and about 6 phasers I think.

That being said, I've checked the gorn ships now, and the problem seems to be the plasma arcs, it looks like the the gorn would have to centerline the klink - that is something that the klink really should be capable of avoiding (though he will have to keep his speed up as well).

However, firing all the Plasma in Bolts means he'll be able to get up close and personal with you before you have plasma ready again.

Thats why you aim at power. If (and I'll emphasise that again) you get that pass at range 5 then the klink will most likely be at a noticeable power disadvantage from that point on. He will probably struggle to keep up with you and shoot much. You average something like 50 damage with phasers thrown in (quite variable though), that should be about 20 internals give or take. In such a case directed damage gives you a good chance of knocking 5 power out, and a fair chance of 10. Unless you expose an already damage shield it is practically impossible for the klink to take the shield down with 4 disr, 3 ph1 and 4 ph2 (at a guess, arc depending of course) without overloading, even with overloading he is looking at doing between 0-10 damage, non directed. You accept the disadvantage of bolting all plasma and having to get away from the better close in ship on the basis that he is significantly worse off after that pass, and at a power deficit that will tell as the game goes on.

storeylf · Post by **storeylf** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 9:16 am

Just re-reading that, realised there is another important fact missing in the scenario.

A D7 going speed 24 (ie anti plasma speed) does not have the power to fire full overloads and all phasers. If he has not accelerated and isn't bothered about keeping any power back and still has full batteries then the best he can do at range 5 is

1 disr standard
3 disr o/l
3 ph1
1 ph2

His average damage is in the 24-27 bracket. His absolute max is 38 (all disr hit, and all 1's for phasers!!).

The Gorn on the other hand can do speed 32 fire all plasma and 6 ph1. Keeping 2 power back for anti drone leaves 4 ph1. Of course if it is early in the turn then you have extra power from the accelleration that wasn't needed.

His expected damage is 50-56 with 4 ph1 (1 bolt is expected to miss, S or F?). All directed.

The gorn has to have forward shield to achive that so he takes 1 burnthrough on average, with not much chance of it being more than that. The Klingon I would assume would not have his forward shield pointing at a fully armed gorn at range 5 as that is periously close to suffering a range 0 shot next impulse, so probably has a 22 point shield facing. On average he takes 28-34 internals directed at power.

For ease say he takes 30 internals. If he is really lucky no track1 is rolled (13% chance), but he will still probably lose 5 power, a torp, drone and 2 phasers. More likely he will end the impulse having lost between 9-11 power systems (not including batteries). That leaves him spending the rest of the game incapable of keeping up with you and shooting, he may not even have the power to outrun plasma. Effectively he is a sitting duck, all for a burnthrough.

As noted earlier though, the main Gorn problem is his weapon arcs. Only a dumb klingon will be centerlined at range 5. However even that actually only means 1 plas F is not in arc (you have 4 ph1 in arc which is all I assumed before). Whilst it is likely less cripppling, it is still a fairly good exchange for the Gorn, and leaves the plasma F to fire normally afterwards, either against a pursuing klingon or a slow klingon.

pinecone · Post by **pinecone** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 5:02 pm

Remember, Klingon Drones will chew up Gorn Phasers, as they have no ADD's (after all of their tractors are in use, that is)

Kang · Post by **Kang** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 1:20 am

Quite simply what I'm reading here can be summed up by saying this: Try to open or close the range as necessary so that your weapons are in their optimum range while denying your opponent's optimum range.d if you're up against plasmas, don't go slow!

PS I'm in Texas, btw. Jeez it's hot. How do you guys over here cope with it? Sorry, I know that's off-topic....

Wolverin61 · Post by **Wolverin61** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 1:34 am

Kang wrote:PS I'm in Texas, btw. Jeez it's hot. How do you guys over here cope with it? Sorry, I know that's off-topic....

Iced tea and air conditioning, Tony

mjwest · Post by **mjwest** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 1:43 am

Kang wrote:Quite simply what I'm reading here can be summed up by saying this: Try to open or close the range as necessary so that your weapons are in their optimum range while denying your opponent's optimum range.d if you're up against plasmas, don't go slow!

Pretty much. If your opponent is doing something that is gonna kill you, don't let him do it. If you are doing something that is getting you killed, stop doing it. Sometimes the object is not to maximize your damage, but to minimize what your opponent can do.

PS I'm in Texas, btw. Jeez it's hot. How do you guys over here cope with it? Sorry, I know that's off-topic....

Sweat a lot.

Cold drinks. Lots of water. Swimming pools. Air conditioning.

That pretty much sums it up.

storeylf · Post by **storeylf** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 8:07 am

Kang wrote:Quite simply what I'm reading here can be summed up by saying this: Try to open or close the range as necessary so that your weapons are in their optimum range while denying your opponent's optimum range.

Absolutely. Although my last couple of posts were about the gorn vs klingon scenario I said exactly what you just said on the first page of this thread.

I'd also say don't just dismiss some mode of firing because it 'looks' weaker than the other mode. Plasma bolts are actually pretty good, especially as they can deliver large amounts of directed damage.

Kahuna · Post by **Kahuna** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 3:26 pm

I agree with the plasma bolts. But also, don't discount the Carronade either. Having up to 8 points damage done automatically per each F launcher to targets within 5 hexes is not too shabby either. I mean even an overloaded disruptor does around that amount each round for 1 point of power less.

I find the Gorn fun. Seeking for the sucker, bolts for the quick, and carronades when you just need it to count. Are they perfect? Heck no! But then no race (other than maybe the Andromedan) is.

Kahuna · Post by **Kahuna** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:45 pm

About Seltorians. Last night I got the chance to play in a 6 man/ship group. We selected our ships at about the same BPV and then threw the counters into a bowl and then drew our ships. We kept alliances in place so the ship you drew also determined the team you were on.

The Alliance team was made up of:
Federation New Heavy Cruiser
Gorn Battle Cruiser
Kzinti Command Cruiser

The Coalition team was made up of:
Klingon FD7 Fast Cruiser
Lyran Command Cruiser
Seltorian Light Dreadnought

No one at the table had every played the Seltorians before which is why we gave that ship a little more BP than the other ships. Without boring you with details, the Alliance team won with the last Coalition ship remaining and retiring being the Seltorian DNL. I felt for the Seltorian player as it was routinely outmanuevered by the Alliance ships. Having never played a Seltorian ship before I was mildly surprised by a couple things.

1. Their turn mode didn't seem to be too hot. Perhaps because he was a bigger ship, but after looking at the other ships they all seem to be a bit cumbersome.
2. They seemed to lack the hard hit. I mean, is there such a thing as an alpha strike for a Seltorian? I understand that their PCs can shoot twice, but most of the time, given your manueverability, you can't get those guns aiming well twice in the same turn.
3. Shield crackers seem, well, kind of pointless. Two power to do 4 damage each and they ONLY affect the shields and still have a chance to miss. I'm not trying to be too critical, but sheesh, you're almost better off replacing those with ph3s.
4. Almost all of his weapons were pointed FA. Given his lack of manueverability, this was a serious problem. Some were LS/RS, but not enough to matter much. The Alliance ships felt like we were holding a toothless tiger by the tail, and the tiger couldn't do much about it.

I understand that they have a good number of Transporters and Shuttles to bring in their marines, but at the speeds we were moving at and the fact that the Alliance shields were not down enough means that became pointless. I'd like to perhaps try commanding the Seltorians next time, but does anyone have any good ideas on how to make them a bit more lethal on the map?

junior · Post by **junior** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:37 pm

I'm puzzled...

You complained that the Shield Crackers (which are basically mini-photons with a faster firing rate) didn't seem to do enough, presumeably due to the fact that they only affect shields, but you also complained about the enemy shields not dropping fast enough to use the mass of transporters...

There's a short tactics thread for them here -

http://www.starfleetgames.com/federatio ... php?t=1590

As you noted, their turn modes aren't very good. Picking the Seltorian as the "big ship" for the Coalition side probably wasn't the best idea. Unfortunately I can't add much more than what I've posted here and in the linked thread, as I've only played one game with them (when I used a Seltorian to take out a Klingon).

Kahuna · Post by **Kahuna** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:44 pm

Thanks Junior for that link. That was insightful and some of it helpful. It actually appears that many people had the same concerns for the Selts as I did.

When I said the Shield Crackers didn't do enough, that was what I saw last night. I know you've compared them to photons in both threads, but they really don't. Only affects shields, can't be overloaded (I don't have my book in front of me now, but I don't recall he overloaded them at all last night), and FA only on a slow turning ship really made them not shine last night.

I do agree about the phasers. Those are arguably their heavy weapon

. I still didn't see enough come from the PCs to impress me. He never got to hit anyone twice in the same turn with them.

terryoc · Post by **terryoc** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:09 am

I love the Seltorians, but even in my opinion the shield crackers are weak.

They're not like photons because you can't store power in them. A Federation ship can load up the photons, or even overload them, then hold them and chase you down. Selts can't do that. If he fires his weapons, he uses power that can't be used for speed.

Also, shield crackers are always a separate volley, so the target gets two chances to reinforce against your volley.

Shield crackers ALWAYS come last at the power trough. Phasers are ALWAYS first. Particle cannons get powered if there's any power left after firing phasers & transporters. Any power left after that goes to Shield crackers.

Of course, when fighting Tholians you'll be very grateful for the SC's because of the web breaking ability.

storeylf · Post by **storeylf** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:13 am

terryoc wrote:I love the Seltorians, but even in my opinion the shield crackers are weak.

They're not like photons because you can't store power in them. A Federation ship can load up the photons, or even overload them, then hold them and chase you down. Selts can't do that. If he fires his weapons, he uses power that can't be used for speed.

He gives up no more speed then the fed. Holding an o/l photon costs 2, firing a SC costs 2. Paying for hold on any weapon is also making it less energy efficient overall (though it may well still be more useful to hold).

Also, shield crackers are always a separate volley, so the target gets two chances to reinforce against your volley.

Shield crackers ALWAYS come last at the power trough. Phasers are ALWAYS first. Particle cannons get powered if there's any power left after firing phasers & transporters. Any power left after that goes to Shield crackers.

The seperate volleys can work for you as well. The power to damage of a SC is not that different to the extra damage you'd get to o/l a PC. Against a weakened shield (or small ship) you can get the same damage as o/l PCs whilst using the PC to direct damage instead. The SC takes out the shield whilst the PC/phasers direct at the power/weapons. Using o/l PCs instead possibly doesn't make a huge difference in total damage but is less effective when rolling for internals.

I do think selts benefit more in a fleet environment though, where the poor turn arc isn't quite so nasty, if one ship can't get his second shot at the downed shield, another ship probably can. The ability to fire twice a turn is quite nasty, you are somewhat less reliant on waiting for that perfect shot, and the ability to direct damage twice a turn is very useful (multi small directs being generally more efficient at hitting key systems than one big bigger volley). I certainly agree that the turn mode combined with fairly focused (FA) arcs is there big achilles heel.

USS Enterprise · Post by **USS Enterprise** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 3:07 pm

Wow. I disagree with a lot of stuff I've said back then.

Hod K'el · Post by **Hod K'el** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:14 pm

USS Enterprise wrote:Wow. I disagree with a lot of stuff I've said back then.

Ah! The beginning of wisdom. Remember, Grasshopper, that all wisdom is only the proper application of knowledge.