PF's in BoM?

lokirising · Post by **lokirising** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 5:52 pm

I'd love to see fast patrol ships in BoM. I wonder if they'll ever be in FC or BoM.

Kahuna · Post by **Kahuna** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:56 pm

We've certainly talked about this quite a bit. I like options and all the goodies, but keep it as simple and clean as possible. For example, on the gunboats, I'm still thinking making a 3 boat flotilla one unit to be a pretty good option. So a full flotilla of 6 gunboats would be, essentially, two ships. Understanding of course that no other ships could stack in the same hex and shoot out the same direction.

As I mentioned in the other forums, I'm curious to see:
1. If much of this ever makes BoM
2. How Steve and the crew will work it to keep it simple yet fun

Overall, I like what they've done so far. I think the web rules are still a little clunky and slow things down, but I don't have a better idea for them so I have no house rules for them. But again, after years of SFB, FC is just so much more fun.

Mike · Post by **Mike** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 1:04 am

If they haven't done fighters in "flights" yet, I doubt we'll see that for gunboats, either.

mjwest · Post by **mjwest** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 1:21 am

I would be exceptionally surprised to see any "flight" idea used for gunboats.

Quite frankly, gunboats are just little ships. The most obvious way to integrate them with Federation Commander (or BoM) is simply to treat them that way. I don't see what would be so harmful to the game about having gunboats.

So far, I see two big issues for integrating gunboats into FC:
1) The engines. The 1/5 movement rate does not work in FC, and the gunboat engines are built around that. That means they will have to be heavily modified to fit the FC movement system.
2) Tenders. The big point of tenders is to be able to repair gunboats in combat, and to be a scout. This isn't an issue in BoM, but tenders really aren't even needed in FC.

Again, conceptually, I believe gunboats fit just fine into Federation Commander. The big issue is getting the mechanics right, which requires design time. Considering that the Andros come first, and Steve doesn't even have time for that, I wouldn't be worrying too much about when gunboats will be added.

Kahuna · Post by **Kahuna** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 1:53 am

The issues I see are the same issues I see with fighters. Too many things to keep track of. Just like our discussions about fighters apply to these guys as well. Sure, they're just little ships, but come in flotillas of 6. So you're managing 6 ships to play one side, perhaps even more than that if you have multiple ships and flotillas. This actually makes them worse than fighters as far as management goes.

I see it going something like this. Whew, that finishes the last energy allocation for PF #6. Now each PF fires 2 drones or a plasma each. Oh yeah, let's have these two HET and these two drop their warp packs. Did those guys already drop theirs? This one over here is going 24 and these three are going 8, right? The other two are going 16+1 this impulse, but we'll see if it's +1 next impulse. This PF Leader is also launching a suicide shuttle. The PF scout is also protecting these 2 right here. Let's move these 12 drones here...not that set of 12, the other set. Alright, who bumped that stack of 12 drones? Sorry guys my impulse is taking so long, I've only got 2 more PFs to go. Alright, done. Wait, these two over here are shooting their disruptor. Let's see if I can overload it. And let's add a phaser 1 as well. Ok, I'll need some dice. Alright, now I'm finally done. Is that all your CC is doing? Man, your moves go so quick. Ok, my move again...

Hehe, it was when PFs were being commonly used in SFB that I petered out of it. If you guys don't have a simple and easy way to do this, then I TOTALLY do not want to see them at all. If I wanted the SFB headache, I'd simply play it there. I can't say I have the answers. I keep hoping the design team does. I realize that flights/groups are unpopular. But again, give us a simple way that keeps the mechanics fun enough or don't do it at all.

Nerroth · Post by **Nerroth** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 4:55 am

In terms of attrition units, should Andromedan mobile weapon platforms be placed (if anywhere) alongside fighters, PFs, or somewhere else?

Hod K'el · Post by **Hod K'el** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 5:34 am

mjwest wrote:2) Tenders. The big point of tenders is to be able to repair gunboats in combat, and to be a scout. This isn't an issue in BoM, but tenders really aren't even needed in FC.

But may be needed under the campaign rules?

storeylf · Post by **storeylf** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 9:30 am

I certainly don't want to see them in FC. If carriers/fighters don't fit in FC then I can't really see how Tenders/PFs do either. Definately a BoM unit IMO.

I can't see them being an 'easy' port to Fleet scale either.

Mike · Post by **Mike** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:25 am

One possibility for gunboats would be to have one type stripped of any drones and have it be direct-fire only. That was done for a type of fighter for each empire in the BoM playtest set. Why not also for gunboats?

The other issue about gunboats is their SFB-1/5 power-movement problem that doesn't work in FC.

How about making them 1/4 and increasing their power slightly, but accordingly?

mjwest · Post by **mjwest** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:01 am

Mike wrote:One possibility for gunboats would be to have one type stripped of any drones and have it be direct-fire only. That was done for a type of fighter for each empire in the BoM playtest set. Why not also for gunboats?

Maybe. But these decisions are quite away from being made.

The other issue about gunboats is their SFB-1/5 power-movement problem that doesn't work in FC.

I believe I said that already. Exactly that.

How about making them 1/4 and increasing their power slightly, but accordingly?

I really don't like using 1/4 with gunboats, as that is the same movement class as frigates. To me, gunboats should be identifiably smaller than frigates, and movement class is part of that.

I prefer using 1/8, and then scaling the power from there. I also want to see the complete removal of booster packs and all of that complexity. Gunboats should be little ships, not big fighters.

But again, all of these design decisions are a ways off. No one even really needs to try and solve them until at least after War & Peace, and likely after Gorn Attack.

djdood · Post by **djdood** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:31 am

In some ways, we already have them by-proxy. A Fleet Scale frigate is pretty similar to an SFB gunboat on lots of things (but quite dissimilar in some key ones like move-cost).

Kang · Post by **Kang** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:12 pm

mjwest wrote:....but tenders really aren't even needed in FC.

...like the Hydran Pegasus 'Traffic control Ship'. Geez....

mjwest · Post by **mjwest** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:36 pm

Kang wrote:
mjwest wrote:....but tenders really aren't even needed in FC.
...like the Hydran Pegasus 'Traffic control Ship'. Geez....

Well, you need to have the occasional target ship thrown in that is different than a freighter or base. And, make no mistake, that is exactly what the Pegasus is. (Just like the Federation Hospital Ship.)

The tenders, on the other hand, are supposed to be versatile warships. If moved into Federation Commander, they lose a lot of their purpose. (Not necessarily true if used in BoM instead.) Therefore, I question their utility in FC.

Put another way, if tenders add nothing to the dynamic in FC, why include them at all? Rules would need to be created to explain what they did, and rules would have to be created to give them some kind of effect. So, in fact, tenders would add something to FC: unneeded complexity.

That, BTW, is another way to deal with gunboats: use a hybrid solution. First, add gunboats to FC proper, as mini-ships. No tenders, no boosters, no special DAC, no special EW. Just weapons-heavy mini-ships. Second, add tenders through BoM. Give them repair rules and special sensors, so they retain their full utility. Then, everyone can win!

pinecone · Post by **pinecone** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:42 pm

storeylf wrote:I certainly don't want to see them in FC. If carriers/fighters don't fit in FC then I can't really see how Tenders/PFs do either. Definately a BoM unit IMO.

I can't see them being an 'easy' port to Fleet scale either.

I agree with Storyelf. If fighters can't be in FC, Gunboats can't either. That said, I'd love to see them in BoM.

Kang · Post by **Kang** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:03 pm

I think you have the right balance, Mike. Like Piney and storeylf, I too don't like the idea of PFs in FC. Too many ships.

Then again, who says that PFs have to go around in packs of 6? FC is a clean slate, right?