the FRAX in FC, what do you think ?

Hod K'el · Post by **Hod K'el** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:08 pm

djdood wrote:
storeylf wrote:I don't understand this fleet control thing, Is there a rule that gives a Flag bridge some special fleet wide ability?
Not in FC, there isn't. That is an SFB-ism. In FC, they are just another control-system box.

So when the new campaign rules come out, how do you know that command structure is not going to be included?

djdood · Post by **djdood** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:20 pm

I don't "know" one way or the other. You would have to ask them.

I could have been more clear in how I phrased my response, but what I said is indeed true. FC is FC and it doesn't have a command-limit system, nor a canon history.

Just like Borders of Madness, any campaign system is it's own animal and adds whatever it needs for it's own purposes. They build on top of FC. FC isn't becoming them.

I wouldn't be surprised to a see some kind of command-limit system in one of the campaign systems, but I'd be just as unsurprised if it didn't. Choice-limits are not really the flavor of FC (it sounds more like SFB, which has the S8 rules). A large segment of FC players are going to want to go "all Munchkin" in their fleet mix, as they already have been in FC (not that I think it is strategically sound, but that group of folks will want to).

It's convenient that there are artifacts in FC (like "Flag Bridge" boxes) which carried over from SFB and will greatly facilitate a campaign system, but it's not like ADB is going to go back and change any FC ship cards to add command limits, etc., like on the SFB SSD's.

terryoc · Post by **terryoc** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:06 pm

Well, I was thinking that you are actually replacing a ADD and a PH-3. Since you have one for the right side and one for the left side, and since they have better than average odds at killing a flock of incoming drones, then the PH-G would be a close equivalent because once you have fired it, you have shot your wad and cannot fire again whereas the ADD could re-engage. Exclamation Question Confused

Not in FC, in FC the ADD gets only one shot at one drone per impulse, on the impulse that the drone impacts. Whereas with a ph-G, you could take one shot, fail to kill, grab it with a tractor then fire another shot in the next impulse (or even the next turn).

mjwest · Post by **mjwest** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 2:29 pm

In my view, the problem with an AFD in FC is that it makes the Frax ships virtually immune to drones. To the point where the opponent might not even bother launching drone, but rather save them for pure anti-drone work. The math just doesn't work. And in that case, everyone loses because both sides end up with weapons that just don't get used.

(It takes only 1/2 point of power for an AFD equipped ship to guarantee kill a drone. Meanwhile, it takes 1 full point of power for the opponent to do the same, assuming he has phasers available. Saving the drones for anti-drone work saves that full point for you and that half point for him. Good trade.)

By tossing the AFD and just going with the "standard" Ph-3, the Frax ships will operate like its primary Klingon and Kzinti opponents. They still get four Ph-3, so the weapon load is very equitable.

(Now, if Frax escorts were ever added to the game, they would definitely get the AFD. Maybe the carriers in BoM. But that is what I would limit.)

The really amusing thing about reviving this thread is that this exercise might not even be all that theoretical ...

wedge_hammersteel · Post by **wedge_hammersteel** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 3:56 pm

The really amusing thing about reviving this thread is that this exercise might not even be all that theoretical ...

mj, would the above have anything to do with Steve's blog post, "Captainâ€™s Log #40 (16 Nov): Mike West suggested we do the Frax and SFGs for FC."

mjwest · Post by **mjwest** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:29 pm

Could be ...

Dal Downing · Post by **Dal Downing** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:14 pm

MJW

I have been thinking (Yes I admit, that is almost never a good thing...) about the problem you said that the AFD had with power vs opponent problem. In stead of eliminating part of the races flavor why don't we fiddle with the power cost.

What I was thinking since a AFD is basically a Phaser G and a ADD with a type of AGEIS interface lets step back in Fed Com. Why not make it like you said a Phaser 3, Half Point to activate, if that misses then allow the FRAX Player to allocated a second Half Point of Power to make a second attempt to kill the drone with a ADD Roll. This is similar to what was done to Plasma Ds. Further more give it a Ammunition Track that would have to be reloaded just like any other Drone Rack i.e. thru Damage Control.

Yes the Frax are still a drone users nightmare but I would rather see the Systems in SFB Modified rather than scrapped or arbitrary swapped.

mjwest · Post by **mjwest** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:04 am

Quite frankly, I never really viewed the AFD as part of the "empire's flavor".

Regardless, the AFD was only put on heavy command ships (and carriers, escorts, and submarines), so not using it would only affect one ship in the presentation, anyway. (Assuming we get four ships. With only two ships it becomes a quick non-issue. And if we get all four ships, I really don't think the dreadnought needs eight AFDs to deal with drones ...)

terryoc · Post by **terryoc** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:18 am

Now that I have actually seen the FRAX rules in Captain's Log #40, I think they're good. I look forward to playing them.

mjwest · Post by **mjwest** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:22 am

Note that, while in different places, we have been given the Frax's full fleet. We have the DN (CL40S), BCH(C48), CA(CL40), CW(CL40), DW(CL40), FF(CL40S), and POL(CL40S). The only ships missing are the CC and CF, and those are normally distributed as "bonus" ships anyway.

Finally, don't be surprised if the submarine Frax don't show up at some point, too ...

terryoc · Post by **terryoc** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:01 am

What's the CF look like? A hydrofoil?

I propose a FRAX fast frigate which looks like a cigarette boat

Hod K'el · Post by **Hod K'el** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:08 pm

Battlegroup Acadiana is currently testing Frax Submarines with current rules. Cloaking is okay. Axion Torpedoes are using the Photon torpedo chart up to range 12 and with only +2 overloads. If fired when cloaked, the firing process flashes the sub and lock on for seeking weapons is possible in that impulse. Drone launches when cloaked do not flash sub. Missile launches do not flash ship, but these are Type IV drones and we are not sure we wnat to introduce a new drone to the game, so we are considering these be Type I-F. We converted the AFD to an ADD. This gives the multiple engagement of the AFD while limiting the PH-G to Hydran and Orion operations.

We have concluded that the submarines are great anti-freighter ships (convoy raiders). It doesn't really have enough firepower to take on and beat any equivalent ship, but it can defend itself well against two equivalent ships.

wedge_hammersteel · Post by **wedge_hammersteel** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 8:06 pm

During direct fire phase, the frax sub launches an axion torp. This gives away his position (so to speak) and in that same impulse, during lauch phase, seeking weapons can be locked and fired. At the start of the next impulse, the frax sub is now cloaked again however, any seeking weapon that was able to lock and lauch is able to maintain that lock.

During playtest, the frax sub only launched axion torps once when my plasma Fs were not in arc.

The frax we playtested was the missile cruiser. It had 2 regular drones and 5 missile launchers (boxes). Only one missile could be lauched per impulse. The ship had 20 missiles maximum with no reloads. The missile speed was 24 and caused 24 points damage. It took 6 points to kill a missile.

mjwest · Post by **mjwest** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 8:28 pm

Axion torpedo rules will be published when the submarine rules are published. Only firing overloaded axion torpedoes will void the cloak; normal loads do not void the cloak. (And, even when voided, the voiding only lasts for a single impulse.) Note this is true in SFB, too.

Since missile racks and such are tied to type-IV drones, which do not exist in FC, I am likely to just use drones and drone racks and skip most of the other details. Submarine drones are still self-guided. (Submarine drones as-is would introduce three new rules into FC: new racks, new drones, new guidance. I figure we can get away with just one new rule: guidance.)

Mike · Post by **Mike** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 8:40 pm

I don't know anything about Frax or their submarines, but from an outsider's perspective (reading what has been posted) it seems that the subs probably have very light shielding. Is this so?