Photon/Hellbore preload question
Moderators: mjwest, Albiegamer
Photon/Hellbore preload question
Can a ship choose to preload only a few photons/hellbores before the game starts in order to retain more power in batteries? For example, if a ship has 4 photons and 5 batteries, can it choose to preload 1 and retain 3 power or preload 2 and retain 1 power in batteries?
How can it be all or nothing if you do not have the power to load all four photons? (Yep, you confused me again...which is pretty easy to do nowadays.)
And come to think about it, I thought the objective was a simplified game...so why allow preloading at all?
And why do I not get to preload disruptors, then choose later to overload or not? And do not give me any garbage about multiple turn arming because my plasmas are multiple arming also, so do they fit in with 'all or nothing'?
And now this begs why I cannot preload a suicide shuttle?
The people that CHOOSE to take a Hydran or Fed ship know what they are getting into, which is why I disagree with the preloading rule.
And come to think about it, I thought the objective was a simplified game...so why allow preloading at all?
And why do I not get to preload disruptors, then choose later to overload or not? And do not give me any garbage about multiple turn arming because my plasmas are multiple arming also, so do they fit in with 'all or nothing'?
And now this begs why I cannot preload a suicide shuttle?
The people that CHOOSE to take a Hydran or Fed ship know what they are getting into, which is why I disagree with the preloading rule.
HoD K'el
IMV Black Dagger
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Life is not victory;
Death is not defeat!
IMV Black Dagger
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Life is not victory;
Death is not defeat!
OK, let's go slowly.
The whole point of pre-loading is to allow ships with two-turn arming weapons the ability to fire the weapon on the first turn of the scenario. That is it. As compensation for this tactical advantage, you suffer the tactical disadvantage of having empty batteries.
You aren't really getting free energy. Instead, it is assumed that the ship spent the normal amount of arming energy on turn 0. So, our Fed CA with four photons and four batteries still spent eight points of energy to pre-load the photons on turn 0. It doesn't just spend the four points of energy in the batteries. However, the batteries are assumed empty, as the ship is spending all of its available energy to pre-load the photons and get to the scenario as quickly as possible.
By "all or nothing" I am referring to pre-loading specific weapons. You either pre-load all of your photons/hellbores/ion cannons, or none of them. You can't pre-load one photon, and leave the rest unloaded.
You can't pre-load suicide shuttles because they are single-turn arming weapons.
Finally, you can pre-load disruptors. No problem. Of course, your disruptors will have been discharged at the end of turn 0, so the only effect of pre-loading disruptors is you have empty batteries. But, if you want to pre-load disruptors, more power to you.
Besides, single-turn arming weapons have their own advantage over multi-turn arming weapons: Single-turn arming weapons don't use energy until the moment of fire. Multi-turn arming weapons must commit to arming during energy allocation. This is a non-trivial advantage.
As you say, people who CHOOSE disruptor armed ships know what they are getting into. It is all tactical trade-offs. Choose the ones you are most comfortable with.
The whole point of pre-loading is to allow ships with two-turn arming weapons the ability to fire the weapon on the first turn of the scenario. That is it. As compensation for this tactical advantage, you suffer the tactical disadvantage of having empty batteries.
You aren't really getting free energy. Instead, it is assumed that the ship spent the normal amount of arming energy on turn 0. So, our Fed CA with four photons and four batteries still spent eight points of energy to pre-load the photons on turn 0. It doesn't just spend the four points of energy in the batteries. However, the batteries are assumed empty, as the ship is spending all of its available energy to pre-load the photons and get to the scenario as quickly as possible.
By "all or nothing" I am referring to pre-loading specific weapons. You either pre-load all of your photons/hellbores/ion cannons, or none of them. You can't pre-load one photon, and leave the rest unloaded.
You can't pre-load suicide shuttles because they are single-turn arming weapons.
Finally, you can pre-load disruptors. No problem. Of course, your disruptors will have been discharged at the end of turn 0, so the only effect of pre-loading disruptors is you have empty batteries. But, if you want to pre-load disruptors, more power to you.
Besides, single-turn arming weapons have their own advantage over multi-turn arming weapons: Single-turn arming weapons don't use energy until the moment of fire. Multi-turn arming weapons must commit to arming during energy allocation. This is a non-trivial advantage.
As you say, people who CHOOSE disruptor armed ships know what they are getting into. It is all tactical trade-offs. Choose the ones you are most comfortable with.
Federation Commander Answer Guy
Mike:
OK, I can see that... maybe you only had enough energy left over at the end of hypothetical Turn 0 to pre-load one Photon Torpedo; so you load it and there's nothing left for batteries...
Mojo:
Based on Mike's explanation of hte all-or-nothing preloading, I'm gonna guess that the hypothetical HB/PHOT question has the same answer - all or nothing.
OK, I can see that... maybe you only had enough energy left over at the end of hypothetical Turn 0 to pre-load one Photon Torpedo; so you load it and there's nothing left for batteries...
Mojo:
Based on Mike's explanation of hte all-or-nothing preloading, I'm gonna guess that the hypothetical HB/PHOT question has the same answer - all or nothing.
Commander, Battlegroup Murfreesboro
Department Head, ACTASF
Department Head, ACTASF
Ah! Light at the end of the tunnel! Exactly! I am running a O-BR w/ 3 Photons. I want to preload two to have on turn one and start loading the 3rd photon on turn one to rotate firing (2-1-2-1, etc.), so I take exception to the all-or-nothing rule. Why should I pay holding cost for a torpedo that I don't want to fully charge, but the rules say I must? Am I the captain of my ship or is MW? Am I a pirate or do I play nice guy?Scoutdad wrote:Mike:
OK, I can see that... maybe you only had enough energy left over at the end of hypothetical Turn 0 to pre-load one Photon Torpedo; so you load it and there's nothing left for batteries...
The same arguement can be made here. If I am going up against, say, a Lyran and do not want to prearm my Hellbore, why should I be forced to arm it? By the same token, I would definitely want to arm my photons, and play long range shoot & scoot. So, again, why all-or-nothing? Why do the Orions get punished?Scoutdad wrote:Mojo:
Based on Mike's explanation of hte all-or-nothing preloading, I'm gonna guess that the hypothetical HB/PHOT question has the same answer - all or nothing.
HoD K'el
IMV Black Dagger
-----------------
Life is not victory;
Death is not defeat!
IMV Black Dagger
-----------------
Life is not victory;
Death is not defeat!
It was so much simpler when it was a use all the battery, then it would be a pointless question.
Its what happens when you tweak the rules for a few corner cases, and before long people want more exceptions, or rules added to allow x, y or z. Bang goes the FC keep it simple in a paragraph, and in comes the SFB style exception 1.1.2.a and condition 3.3.4. etc all in the name of 'realism'.
Please keep it as it is, all or nothing, as hod says - you know what you are getting into when you choose a ship/weapons.
Its what happens when you tweak the rules for a few corner cases, and before long people want more exceptions, or rules added to allow x, y or z. Bang goes the FC keep it simple in a paragraph, and in comes the SFB style exception 1.1.2.a and condition 3.3.4. etc all in the name of 'realism'.
Please keep it as it is, all or nothing, as hod says - you know what you are getting into when you choose a ship/weapons.
Everything else being equal, let me please call BS on this. Even if you want to fire your photons in a 2-1-2-1 spread (which, quite frankly, boggles the mind), you are still better off coming in will all pre-loaded.Hod K'el wrote:Ah! Light at the end of the tunnel! Exactly! I am running a O-BR w/ 3 Photons. I want to preload two to have on turn one and start loading the 3rd photon on turn one to rotate firing (2-1-2-1, etc.), so I take exception to the all-or-nothing rule. Why should I pay holding cost for a torpedo that I don't want to fully charge, but the rules say I must? Am I the captain of my ship or is MW? Am I a pirate or do I play nice guy?
If you come in with all three pre-loaded, then you pay 2+2+2 this turn to complete arming. Next turn you pay 1+2+2 to hold the remaining photon, and start loading the two you fired.
If you come in with two pre-loaded and one empty, you pay 2+2+2 this turn to complete arming on the first two and start arming the third one. Next turn you pay 2+2+2 to finish arming the third one, and start loading the two you fired.
So, I just saved you a whole point of power on your third turn. The only possible reason I think of wanting to leave the third weapon empty is because you know you will not be able to control your impulses and will fire it with the other two. And if that really were the case (which I am sure it isn't), then, no, you shouldn't be the captain of your own ship!
Actually, there is no disadvantage here at all. If you really don't want the hellbore on the first turn, just don't arm it. The partially loaded hellbore is harmlessly discharged at no energy cost. There is no difference at all in the turn one energy allocation.Hod K'el wrote:The same arguement can be made here. If I am going up against, say, a Lyran and do not want to prearm my Hellbore, why should I be forced to arm it? By the same token, I would definitely want to arm my photons, and play long range shoot & scoot. So, again, why all-or-nothing? Why do the Orions get punished?
And, let's assume you just wanted to start the first turn of arming on turn one. Well, if all are pre-loaded, then you pay 2+2+3 to finish arming the photons and hellbores. Which, incidentally, is exactly the same amount of power it would take to finish the arming of the photons are start arming on the hellbore. Only except this time you get the choice of whether to fire on turn one or not.
So, my ruling provides you with more tactical flexibility at zero energy cost to you. In fact, with the three photons I am actually saving you energy on the second turn. So, how, exactly, have I harmed you and your little BR in any of this?
Federation Commander Answer Guy
Well, unfortunately, the "border case" you mention was very necessary. It was totally outrageous to force a BATS to completely empty its batteries just to arm one or two photons or hellbores. It was needed.storeylf wrote:It was so much simpler when it was a use all the battery, then it would be a pointless question.
However, I do agree that the battery cost should be completely consistent regardless of the number of weapons pre-loaded. And, with that assumption, there is no reason to not do "all-or-nothing" as it imposes no relevant limitations on Turn 1 operations.
Federation Commander Answer Guy
Afraid I am not following you here. Let's get back to your example ...Hod K'el wrote:Because I am using two points of battery that I don't have on Turn 0. So where does that power come from? If it is all or nothing, then it is always nothing.
You said you wanted to pre-load two photons and not pre-load a third photon. Even if you could "save" energy like mojo jojo wanted, you would still have empty batteries because the Orion BR has four batteries. So, whether you pre-load two photons or three photons, your batteries are still empty. No big deal. No difference in starting position.
Now, it could be different if you only pre-loaded a single photon. But, at that point, the single pre-load is little threat, and really isn't that much different that just coming in with no pre-loads and full batteries.
But again, if you pre-load multi-turn arming weapons, your batteries are empty. (Subject to the cap given in (4C2c).) Changing that buys very little benefit, and a lot more rules cruft. It cost just doesn't seem worth the benefit.
BTW, I am also a little confused. At first you were insulted by the very existence of the "Pre-Game Arming" rule. Now you are insisting on expanding the rule. Don't get it.
Federation Commander Answer Guy