ADD / AFD etc.

[Hod K'el]

Wanderings of a wondering mind: an ADD can fire every impulse in SFB, but only once every four (4) sub-pulses in FC. Why can they not fire four (4) times every four (4) sub-pulses in FC? Would that not balance the odds to reflect more closely to SFB? Or how could that unbalance FC?

[mjwest]

That is an artifact of the game system that only allows 8 firing opportunities a turn, rather than 32. However, since it can still fire every time it needs to, that isn't a big problem. In fact, it gets an advantage in that you can fire it, see the results of the firing, then possibly fire phasers to finish it off (or use tractors).

[ericphillips]

Just my opinion, but FC isn't a game of "let's make a game that plays like SFB." It is its own game, and I think the rules for ADD "feel" right in play, and that is what counts.

[Hod K'el]

I can understand the fire once per impulse concept, however, when I get hit with six drones in one impulse, I get to fire back only one time, instead of the three to five times I get in SFB, so I propose to moderate the 3 to 5 times at 4 times due to the sub-pulse system. I view the standing rule as ADD's got screwed twice; once by reduced range (range 3 to range 0) and once by reduced ability (the quantity of fire, due specifically to the range). I am not saying to change when it fires, only the quantity of fire to that of four for each sub-pulse. I think this would also balance the fighter and fighter missile problem for BoM.

Please understand that I view this as my opinion that I am sharing because, if I do not, then shame on me.

[terryoc]

I disagree about ADDs. I understand how you feel, in SFB the ADD is an excellent system and in FC it's little more than padding for the drone racks, and I still disagree.

Yes, ADDs got reduced in power dramatically in FC in comparison with SFB. In comparison, however, drones got reduced in effectiveness in FC in comparison with SFB, so the reduction in effectiveness of drone defenses balances everything out. It's already hard enough to score damage with drones. Firing an ADD four times per impulse would slaughter incoming drones and massively increase the number of drones you need to hit with to saturate a target's drone defenses, particularly if the target has multiple ADD systems. Gatlings are bad enough IMO, but at least they cost power to fire. At least as the rules currently stand, getting a drone impact sucks up some of the target's power.

The Borders of Madness Aegis rules make ADDs much more useful on ADD armed escorts (e.g. Klingon E5E). That's enough IMO.

[storeylf]

I don't see the problem, of course I can't remember what SFB did with ADDs, therefore have no thought about them being 'nerfed' compared to SFB. Of course whether they were nerfed or not is utterly irrelvant, SFB is SFB and FedCom isn't.

The only thing that counts is whether, taken as a whole, the drone/anti-drone mechanics works (balance wise) in FedCom, and on that I am more than happy that they do. A noted by Terryoc you can't look at boosting one system if you aren't also going to look at modifying the systems/mechanics that are related to the system you are boosting. Are you also proposing that (God forbid) FedCom gets fast drones, armor drones, big drones, fast fire racks, big racks, scatter packs and all the other gubbins that personally I don't for one moment want to see in FedCom, or are you just proposing killing off the drone using races by boosting anti-drone systems?

[ericphillips]

Storyelf is right. I can't imagine playing a Kzinti with ADDs shhoting 4 times an impulse. Hitting is hard enough as it is. Fed Com is Fed Com. SFB is SFB. Period.

[Hod K'el]

You guys are looking at drones only. Remember that fighters can be shot with ADD's. Granted, it takes two shots to take each of them out, but you also have to stop their 12 incoming missiles, the (usually 4) ship missiles, and the 12 fighters who have more missiles to launch plus phaser 3s or heavy weapons.

Now you see why phaser boats are so popular with Orions!

(sighs and mutters, 'Thank the engineers for phaser Gs!')

[terryoc]

Shooting fighters with ADDs? Not in my rulebook...

Hydrans tend to carry fewer Stingers in FC; Stingers have themselves been nerfed somewhat from the SFB version, and in my (limited) experience disruptors tend to be adequate to deal with them. No small target modifiers or other goodies in FC for the fighters, so it makes using heavy weapons on them viable. Oh, and have you seen what Vudar IPGs do to Stingers? Pretty brutal.

While the proposed fighters from Borders of Madness carry drones, they carry fewer drones, can launch them relatively slowly (no type-3s etc etc) and so on. Fighters just aren't that much of an issue in FC (yet) (IMO).

[ericphillips]

... Remember that fighters can be shot with ADD's. ... but you also have to stop their 12 incoming missiles, the (usually 4) ship missiles, and the 12 fighters who have more missiles to launch plus phaser 3s or heavy weapons.

Apples and oranges. You are still thinking in SFB terms. Here are the problems with your arguments:

1. In FC, ADD cannot fire on fighters.
2. Hydran Stingers cannot fire drones.

[ericphillips]

Just to add, FedCom has been out for four years and you are the first I have seen to argue this. I think from the non-chorus of agreement with you that FC's ADD rules are pretty well balanced.

[mjwest]

ADDs have been out as long as Federation Commander itself. At this point, it is nearly impossible to change them. Now, if there was a game-bending mistake (like, say, the duration of cast web), then it is something that needs to be fixed. But, if a system is working as designed, then it is unlikely to ever be changed.

ADDs are working as they were designed. As secondary as they may be.

[DirkSJ]

ADDs cannot shoot fighters in FC. ESGs are a lot less effective against fighters as well compared to SFB.

In FC you always get perfect range 0 shots on all drones. You get to "try your whole bag" against them, trying ADD, then phasers, then tractor if that all failed.

In SFB you don't have those same options in the same convenient way. Once a drone hits it hits. You can't reliably get perfect shots on every drone and each drone can have a million options from armor/EW to extra large warhead, extra speed, or even a phaser on it. You can flood them with a scatterpack and/or dogfight drones. Drones are a massively dynamic and powerful system in SFB.

Drone's lost a lot in translation. They are very boring systems in FC. Ships gained a lot of power against them since they don't have to waste any time on labbing nor do they really ever have to worry about shooting them down at range > 0 (except perhaps against a huge pile of Kzinti ships all firing on the same target). As a partial balance against this ADDs got worse and there are no tbombs to sweep packs of drones.

[storeylf]

You guys are looking at drones only. Remember that fighters can be shot with ADD's. Granted, it takes two shots to take each of them out, but you also have to stop their 12 incoming missiles, the (usually 4) ship missiles, and the 12 fighters who have more missiles to launch plus phaser 3s or heavy weapons.

Now you see why phaser boats are so popular with Orions!

(sighs and mutters, 'Thank the engineers for phaser Gs!')

As noted by others ADDs are not anti-fighter, also fighters (stingers) do not fire drones in FedCom. In BoM stuff there may be fighters that have drones, but not in FedCom. In Fedom there are only drones to consider, that is why we are only looking at drones.

I'd also add that I really like phaser boats for orions, but it has absolutely nothing to do with anything you just mentioned.

[wedge_hammersteel]

I find it amusing to read the posts from those of you that write, “Fed Com is Fed Com. SFB is SFB. Period� and “SFB is SFB and FedCom isn't.� And “It is its own game, and I think the rules for ADD "feel" right in play, and that is what counts.�

That last quote is the best. I guess this topic should have ended there.

Federation Commander is largely based on Star Fleet Battles. Do I need to underline “largely� for you? Who defines largely? That IMO would be SVC.

If SVC felt that the ADD rules were broken and decided to fix them, there’s nothing you could do about it except to stop playing. I myself agree with the majority, or to better phrase that, everyone except Hod K’el.

Hod K’el only put up a topic for discussion. No need to be so harsh on the man. I don’t agree with him but I still enjoy his company in our gaming group.

Borders of Madness is FedCom. The rules are optional. So if there are fighters with drones in BoM then they are also in FedCom. Again, they are optional rules. Use them if you choose. Your verbiage is semantic. From reading some of your previous posts, a lot of your musings are based on semantics.