This also means that if no one likes it and this project doesn't make it too far out the gate, then at least quite a few ships were covered in the first doomed pdf run instead of just the FRA and the Trobrin.
And if people are interested and this whole thing makes it to "stage 2", then we've created a good base for ourselves to push forward with.
Omega Conversion Project
Moderators: mjwest, Albiegamer
How many different new weapons would be required by the proposed mix of ships? That's another issue, the amount of rules required. And those would take time and require checking and balancing. I strongly feel that the new rules should be fed to the players in bite-size chunks. That's how I would prefer it, anyway. Even if the rules are fairly straightforward, the tactical IMPLICATIONS of the new weapon are often not obvious, and take some thinking and getting used to. A bunch of new weapons are a lot to absorb. They did it with the initial Omega module for SFB and got away with it, but I'm not sure it would work as well with FC.
Gary, I don't want you to feel like you are being shouted down, here. I congratulate you for taking the lead on this and making it happen as a real FC product. I want it to succeed as well. I simply believe that following the tried-and-true formula established by the existing products will give this one the best chance of long-term success. I fear that trying to put too much variety into the initial offering will cause problems.
Edited to put a sentence in the right spot!
Gary, I don't want you to feel like you are being shouted down, here. I congratulate you for taking the lead on this and making it happen as a real FC product. I want it to succeed as well. I simply believe that following the tried-and-true formula established by the existing products will give this one the best chance of long-term success. I fear that trying to put too much variety into the initial offering will cause problems.
Edited to put a sentence in the right spot!
Last edited by terryoc on Sat Aug 07, 2010 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Captain" Terry O'Carroll, fourteen papers published including six best of issue
"Man, Terry, you are like a loophole seeking missle!" - Mike West
"Man, Terry, you are like a loophole seeking missle!" - Mike West
Gary,
Let me explain my issue with the FRA in terms of the main galactic powers. The direct equivalence of what I see you saying is that you view Operation Nutcracker as a major and super significant "war", and that you want to highlight the Tholians in the first module about the galactic powers. We'll throw in the Klingons, because they are pursing the war, and add an Orion CR to keep things interesting, but are going to ignore the Kzinti, Federation, and Romulans. That is the practical effect of what I see being offered.
Instead, I want to see the major power be presented. I want the Omega version of the Federation. From what I can tell, that would be the Maestron. It is the equivalent power in Omega (as much as the very different history can have such an equivalent). So, as a result, I want to build around that major power.
Then I want to pick a major enemy. I don't really care who they are. I don't care what their "racial" attribute happens to be. That doesn't matter. What matters is that they are a great opponent for the Maestron and actually fought the Maestron. Think of these as the "Omega Klingons".
Next, if we have room, I would like to squeeze a third player in. We might not be able to. If they have a whole third set of different rules, then it just might not be possible. Again, I don't care who they are, or what their "racial" attribute happens to be. None of that actually matters. What matters is that they are a great opponent to one of the first two, and might have fought the other at least occasionally. Think of these as the "Omega Kzinti".
Now, it would be nice to throw in a few other examples (e.g. the "Omega Tholians" or "Omega Orions"), but with only 12 ships, there isn't room. [Quite frankly, there wasn't room in Klingon Border, either. But since it was the first FC product ever, they were necessary. This is the first Omega FC product, but not the first FC product. As such, they can more easily be ignored for the first go.]
Also, while you are apparently enamored of this great FRA war, I am quite sure that there are other wars that actually feature the major powers of Omega, rather than a bit player. There is no reason we can't have a great "story" around that particular war.
Finally, a major objection I have with presenting the FRA first is that it sends all kinds of wrong messages. The FRA were obviously introduced to serve as a "bridge" of sorts back to the main galactic empires. It was a way to put a smattering of the "known" empires into the Omega setting. I can understand why it was done eventually in SFB (in the third go-round, I will point out), but leading with it is simply wrong. By leading with it, you are effectively admitting that Omega is not strong or interesting enough to stand on its own. The only way it can sell is by including "real" Omega empires into it, then featuring those "real" empires from the start. If Omega is going to succeed, you need to lead with them, and push them. Prove that they are able to stand on their own without the crutch of the FRA.
Rick,
What you are suggesting is basically an Omega equivalent of Booster Zero. And the problem I see with it is exactly what Terry outlines. Booster Zero included several new rules (plasma, cloak, PPD, ESG) and example ships. The problem with an Omega Booster Zero is that it would require an insane number of rules to cover all of those empires. I think that is way too ambitious for what this needs. In fact, I would strongly recommend trying to pick second and third empires that share at least some technology with the Maestron or each other. That way there can be slightly fewer heavy weapons or phaser types or whatever. Being forced to use three full independent sets of technology is a strong indicator that only two empires should be presented to start with.
Let me explain my issue with the FRA in terms of the main galactic powers. The direct equivalence of what I see you saying is that you view Operation Nutcracker as a major and super significant "war", and that you want to highlight the Tholians in the first module about the galactic powers. We'll throw in the Klingons, because they are pursing the war, and add an Orion CR to keep things interesting, but are going to ignore the Kzinti, Federation, and Romulans. That is the practical effect of what I see being offered.
Instead, I want to see the major power be presented. I want the Omega version of the Federation. From what I can tell, that would be the Maestron. It is the equivalent power in Omega (as much as the very different history can have such an equivalent). So, as a result, I want to build around that major power.
Then I want to pick a major enemy. I don't really care who they are. I don't care what their "racial" attribute happens to be. That doesn't matter. What matters is that they are a great opponent for the Maestron and actually fought the Maestron. Think of these as the "Omega Klingons".
Next, if we have room, I would like to squeeze a third player in. We might not be able to. If they have a whole third set of different rules, then it just might not be possible. Again, I don't care who they are, or what their "racial" attribute happens to be. None of that actually matters. What matters is that they are a great opponent to one of the first two, and might have fought the other at least occasionally. Think of these as the "Omega Kzinti".
Now, it would be nice to throw in a few other examples (e.g. the "Omega Tholians" or "Omega Orions"), but with only 12 ships, there isn't room. [Quite frankly, there wasn't room in Klingon Border, either. But since it was the first FC product ever, they were necessary. This is the first Omega FC product, but not the first FC product. As such, they can more easily be ignored for the first go.]
Also, while you are apparently enamored of this great FRA war, I am quite sure that there are other wars that actually feature the major powers of Omega, rather than a bit player. There is no reason we can't have a great "story" around that particular war.
Finally, a major objection I have with presenting the FRA first is that it sends all kinds of wrong messages. The FRA were obviously introduced to serve as a "bridge" of sorts back to the main galactic empires. It was a way to put a smattering of the "known" empires into the Omega setting. I can understand why it was done eventually in SFB (in the third go-round, I will point out), but leading with it is simply wrong. By leading with it, you are effectively admitting that Omega is not strong or interesting enough to stand on its own. The only way it can sell is by including "real" Omega empires into it, then featuring those "real" empires from the start. If Omega is going to succeed, you need to lead with them, and push them. Prove that they are able to stand on their own without the crutch of the FRA.
Rick,
What you are suggesting is basically an Omega equivalent of Booster Zero. And the problem I see with it is exactly what Terry outlines. Booster Zero included several new rules (plasma, cloak, PPD, ESG) and example ships. The problem with an Omega Booster Zero is that it would require an insane number of rules to cover all of those empires. I think that is way too ambitious for what this needs. In fact, I would strongly recommend trying to pick second and third empires that share at least some technology with the Maestron or each other. That way there can be slightly fewer heavy weapons or phaser types or whatever. Being forced to use three full independent sets of technology is a strong indicator that only two empires should be presented to start with.
Federation Commander Answer Guy
-
Rick Smith
- Lieutenant Commander
- Posts: 261
- Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:56 am
Hi Mike, I completely see your point. It makes sense. It would be a massive "booster zero" project with way too many rules. Could melt some minds.
Let's try to run with your plan then: maybe Mæsron + Koligahr + Trobrin or Mæsron + Trobrin + Vari or some variation thereof. If the FRA just have to have to be in there, maybe just one ship.
I know you really love the FRA, Gary, but Mike and Terry make some very valid points.
Let's try to run with your plan then: maybe Mæsron + Koligahr + Trobrin or Mæsron + Trobrin + Vari or some variation thereof. If the FRA just have to have to be in there, maybe just one ship.
I know you really love the FRA, Gary, but Mike and Terry make some very valid points.
Gary, from a marketing viewpoint, I have to concur with Mike West. Having a couple of empires in there that are not the FRA lets me sell it as new, cool empires that have exciting weapons and a complex history all their own. It makes it sound fresh and exciting. If you have too many new rules, it could sort of blow people's minds.
I want this product to really do well and take the FC world by storm so you can tell the new FC players the rest of the stories there are out there. To do that, this product has to be really strong. Pick two biggies and let them duke it out. Expand them to other empires to let the Omegas blossom out in easily digested chunks. Don't rush your fences; build a solid base and the people will come.
I want this product to really do well and take the FC world by storm so you can tell the new FC players the rest of the stories there are out there. To do that, this product has to be really strong. Pick two biggies and let them duke it out. Expand them to other empires to let the Omegas blossom out in easily digested chunks. Don't rush your fences; build a solid base and the people will come.
Business Manager/RPG Line Editor
Amarillo Design Bureau, Inc.
Amarillo Design Bureau, Inc.
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jeffery smith
- Lieutenant SG
- Posts: 190
- Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:34 pm
- Location: Bothell,WA
So, no-one picked up on the part where I said we might (possibly, not certainly) be able to have more than one module made available on the day of launch, then?
If this can indeed be made to happen, we'd then have 24 ship card choices to consider from, not 12, when trying to plan for the first wave of Omega products.
(And hopefully for the second, too; I'd definitely argue that the 3rd and 4th files should also be released on the same day, allowing for that list of 24 ships to be planned accordingly.)
When it comes to the order of preference empire-wise, I might note two things.
One - when it comes to how things were done in SFB for Omega, it was noted as far back as the designers' notes for Omega 2 that offering so few ships for so many empires in Omega 1 had been a mistake; instead of 4-5 ships apiece for 11 empires, there should have been 6-8 ships for 5-6. (It was too late to rectify that for Omega 2, but it's worth noting that the revised pattern was followed for modules 3 and 4, and would presumably be continued if we ever see some of the yet-to-be-published Omega empires join the fray.)
Now, as it happens, many empires' ships in SFB are ineligible for use in vanilla FC anyway; even so, there is a degree of proportionality which could be worth noting, not least since there are some empires who have only a handful of published ships which might be on the table as it stands.
Two - FC has not exactly followed the SFB R-section number list slavishly, itself. The Seltorians jumped the queue to go alongside the Neo-Tholians in Tholian Attack; becoming the first non-TV navy to be fleshed out in the game. The Vudar got added to the ISC and Andros for War and Peace; though it was never all that likely they'd have been offered in a singular module they way they were for SFB anyway.
My point is that, as and when the situation arose, it has been better to match empires together under some kind of common theme, rather than stick with the way things were done in SFB.
(As I have noted before, Omega is a good place to do this; putting the mutually antagonistic Hivers, Alunda and Branthodons together at some later point is arguably preferable over having one or two in one SFB-defined list of navies and the rest several products' down the line.)
Now, in that context, if my suggestions earlier were inadequate, what if I moved the Probr out of file #4 and into file #2, and switched four of the Iridani ships to their old place?
The Probr and Trobrin are long-standing rivals on the 'western' side of the Mæsron Alliance; both jumped in to take advantage of the Collapse (though the Probr, with no particular grudge against the Alliance, did so more to pre-empt the Trobrin than out of a desire for conquest); and both were involved in the agreement which the Bolosco signed to establish their new home territory.
That would leave the Koligahr and Vari, on the 'eastern' Mæsron front, as the last two Superpowers to introduce.
So, out of two pairs of 12 files each, both groups would get what they want; an array of ships for three big powers (Mæsron-Trobrin-Probr, then Mæsron-Koligahr-Vari), with room for the likes of the Aurorans, Bolosco and others.
Of course, that would mean we'd have to work out quantum phaser, HEAT and TA rules earlier than I had planned...
Oh, and I want to make a point about the Aurorans; they are not only important (to me, at least) just because of the Trobrin battles in 2549.
The Aurorans made a larger contribution to Omega history than they are being given credit for. They sided with the Tazol and Wallimi against the Vulpa to help end the Civil War, helped secure the post-Collapse New Alliance by sending patrols across Mæsron space, negotiated the ceasefire between the Trobrin and Probr which ended the Superpower Wars, helped bring the Probr into the Second Great War, developed hot warp technology in tandem with the Mæsrons during the course of that conflict, and were the ones who first came up with the volatile warp technology that made Omega gunboats possible.
By the time they went ahead and joined the Alliance in 2609, they were able to ensure their self-government and the retention of their own ship types; plus they were able to help the Probr again, by intervening against the Trobrin (against the wishes of the rest of the Alliance) during one of the wars of the Seventh Cycle.
The FRA are not a superpower; they don't have to be. They are Omega's most telling example of how size isn't always everything.
If this can indeed be made to happen, we'd then have 24 ship card choices to consider from, not 12, when trying to plan for the first wave of Omega products.
(And hopefully for the second, too; I'd definitely argue that the 3rd and 4th files should also be released on the same day, allowing for that list of 24 ships to be planned accordingly.)
When it comes to the order of preference empire-wise, I might note two things.
One - when it comes to how things were done in SFB for Omega, it was noted as far back as the designers' notes for Omega 2 that offering so few ships for so many empires in Omega 1 had been a mistake; instead of 4-5 ships apiece for 11 empires, there should have been 6-8 ships for 5-6. (It was too late to rectify that for Omega 2, but it's worth noting that the revised pattern was followed for modules 3 and 4, and would presumably be continued if we ever see some of the yet-to-be-published Omega empires join the fray.)
Now, as it happens, many empires' ships in SFB are ineligible for use in vanilla FC anyway; even so, there is a degree of proportionality which could be worth noting, not least since there are some empires who have only a handful of published ships which might be on the table as it stands.
Two - FC has not exactly followed the SFB R-section number list slavishly, itself. The Seltorians jumped the queue to go alongside the Neo-Tholians in Tholian Attack; becoming the first non-TV navy to be fleshed out in the game. The Vudar got added to the ISC and Andros for War and Peace; though it was never all that likely they'd have been offered in a singular module they way they were for SFB anyway.
My point is that, as and when the situation arose, it has been better to match empires together under some kind of common theme, rather than stick with the way things were done in SFB.
(As I have noted before, Omega is a good place to do this; putting the mutually antagonistic Hivers, Alunda and Branthodons together at some later point is arguably preferable over having one or two in one SFB-defined list of navies and the rest several products' down the line.)
Now, in that context, if my suggestions earlier were inadequate, what if I moved the Probr out of file #4 and into file #2, and switched four of the Iridani ships to their old place?
File 2: A House Divided
*Mæsron Alliance (5):
Dreadnought (DN)
Heavy Cruiser (CA)
Light Cruiser (CL)
Destroyer (DD)
Frigate (FF)
*Probr Revolution (4):
Dreadnought
Heavy Cruiser
Destroyer
Frigate
*Iridani Questors (2):
Galleon (GL)
Caravel (CR)
*Bolosco Merchant Guilds (1):
Mercenary Dreadnought (MD)
File 4: Superpowers Rising
*Koligahr Solidarity (4):
Dreadnought
Heavy Cruiser
Destroyer
Patrol Boat
*Vari Combine (4):
Battlewagon
Heavy Cruiser
Light Cruiser
Frigate
*Iridani Questors (4):
Brigantine (BG)
Clipper (CP)
Barque (BQ)
Yawl (YW)
The Probr and Trobrin are long-standing rivals on the 'western' side of the Mæsron Alliance; both jumped in to take advantage of the Collapse (though the Probr, with no particular grudge against the Alliance, did so more to pre-empt the Trobrin than out of a desire for conquest); and both were involved in the agreement which the Bolosco signed to establish their new home territory.
That would leave the Koligahr and Vari, on the 'eastern' Mæsron front, as the last two Superpowers to introduce.
So, out of two pairs of 12 files each, both groups would get what they want; an array of ships for three big powers (Mæsron-Trobrin-Probr, then Mæsron-Koligahr-Vari), with room for the likes of the Aurorans, Bolosco and others.
Of course, that would mean we'd have to work out quantum phaser, HEAT and TA rules earlier than I had planned...
Oh, and I want to make a point about the Aurorans; they are not only important (to me, at least) just because of the Trobrin battles in 2549.
The Aurorans made a larger contribution to Omega history than they are being given credit for. They sided with the Tazol and Wallimi against the Vulpa to help end the Civil War, helped secure the post-Collapse New Alliance by sending patrols across Mæsron space, negotiated the ceasefire between the Trobrin and Probr which ended the Superpower Wars, helped bring the Probr into the Second Great War, developed hot warp technology in tandem with the Mæsrons during the course of that conflict, and were the ones who first came up with the volatile warp technology that made Omega gunboats possible.
By the time they went ahead and joined the Alliance in 2609, they were able to ensure their self-government and the retention of their own ship types; plus they were able to help the Probr again, by intervening against the Trobrin (against the wishes of the rest of the Alliance) during one of the wars of the Seventh Cycle.
The FRA are not a superpower; they don't have to be. They are Omega's most telling example of how size isn't always everything.
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Rick Smith
- Lieutenant Commander
- Posts: 261
- Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:56 am
Then use list 2 for file 1 and vice vesa, if it comes to that.
I had emailed SVC when he noted the 12 Card per file limit; I argued that a dozen ships are not enough to start with. He said that 12 had to be the limit per file, but that the first two or three files could go up on the same day, which would accomplish the same result.
So, if it was on the table, 2 files on launch day and two more on the second date of release would do nicely.
I had emailed SVC when he noted the 12 Card per file limit; I argued that a dozen ships are not enough to start with. He said that 12 had to be the limit per file, but that the first two or three files could go up on the same day, which would accomplish the same result.
So, if it was on the table, 2 files on launch day and two more on the second date of release would do nicely.
This isn't how ADB releases products. Spreading products over time has a lot of good business and community management implications.Nerroth wrote:So, no-one picked up on the part where I said we might (possibly, not certainly) be able to have more than one module made available on the day of launch, then?
And yet single-release boosters (Like 0, 91 and 92) have been the exception, not the rule.
The norm has been for them to be released three at a time; offering 24 Ship Cards between them; which in an e23 context would be covered by two files (give or take the need for Omega weapon cards).
If, after Omega becomes more established, single releases are more viable than pairs, fair enough; still, 12 ships are not enough to get the setting off the ground, in my view.
The norm has been for them to be released three at a time; offering 24 Ship Cards between them; which in an e23 context would be covered by two files (give or take the need for Omega weapon cards).
If, after Omega becomes more established, single releases are more viable than pairs, fair enough; still, 12 ships are not enough to get the setting off the ground, in my view.
I guess I disagree there. 12 ships seems more than enough to me. And two races (considering how many new rules are here) far more than enough.Nerroth wrote:If, after Omega becomes more established, single releases are more viable than pairs, fair enough; still, 12 ships are not enough to get the setting off the ground, in my view.
It will take quite a while for me to explain 2 omega races worth of special rules and us to play enough games to learn the best strategies with said new weapons/systems.
With 2 I can explain them and we can play them a number of times and have fun trying out new things with new systems. Then, months later when they are old hat like all the other races, another offering of two new shiny races with new shiny rules comes out for everyone to be excited about!
If you do too much too fast it doesn't get better. It gets worse. You get overwhelmed with too many new rules and some of the new races will get sidelined and not get much play as some other race seemed more interesting at the time it came out.
This is the problem the Vudar have for me right now, the Andros and ISC seem more compelling and fun and interesting and no one really even considers playing the Vudar...now if the Vudar had come out on their own or in a 2-race pack I suspect there would be more interest as they would be the cool new thing. Novelty is extremely important.
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Savedfromwhat
- Commander
- Posts: 659
- Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2007 4:38 pm
how many of the "24" ship cars in each booster are doubles? There are not 24 individual ships in each release closer to 12-18.Nerroth wrote:And yet single-release boosters (Like 0, 91 and 92) have been the exception, not the rule.
The norm has been for them to be released three at a time; offering 24 Ship Cards between them; which in an e23 context would be covered by two files (give or take the need for Omega weapon cards).
If, after Omega becomes more established, single releases are more viable than pairs, fair enough; still, 12 ships are not enough to get the setting off the ground, in my view.
A random shotgun-blast of musings, here.
It may be possible to release two files at once. However, releasing just one file is, I believe, going to be taking at least some staff time for editing and checking Ship Cards. So trying to do two at once may delay the release of at least one of them. Unlike regular releases, you don't have to announce it three months in advance for the distributors, so we can release them when ready. (OTOH maybe Jean will want some lead time to get the word out before the product is released.)
For ship card choices, if you have 12 to play with, I think DN, BCH, CA, CL, DD, FF for two powers is the way to go. Most Border/Attack products have had similar line-ups.
Gary, I don't think that the comparison is apt. The three-at-a-time boosters are all supporting Attack products. This is way more like an Attack product than anything else. Booster Zero is an anomaly, it gave you a taster of upcoming Empires, but each of those empires eventually came out in an Attack product sharing the limelight with one other Empire. E.g. Gorns & Romulans, Hydrans & Lyrans.And yet single-release boosters (Like 0, 91 and 92) have been the exception, not the rule.
The norm has been for them to be released three at a time; offering 24 Ship Cards between them; which in an e23 context would be covered by two files (give or take the need for Omega weapon cards).
It may be possible to release two files at once. However, releasing just one file is, I believe, going to be taking at least some staff time for editing and checking Ship Cards. So trying to do two at once may delay the release of at least one of them. Unlike regular releases, you don't have to announce it three months in advance for the distributors, so we can release them when ready. (OTOH maybe Jean will want some lead time to get the word out before the product is released.)
For ship card choices, if you have 12 to play with, I think DN, BCH, CA, CL, DD, FF for two powers is the way to go. Most Border/Attack products have had similar line-ups.
"Captain" Terry O'Carroll, fourteen papers published including six best of issue
"Man, Terry, you are like a loophole seeking missle!" - Mike West
"Man, Terry, you are like a loophole seeking missle!" - Mike West