Andromedans overpointed

[mjwest]

You'd better not get to range 0 or 1. The ISC will tractor the Int and blow it up with superior phasers even without PPDs.

Sorry, gotta dog-pile on this one.

Ignoring a potential second displacement (of self or ISC) and ignoring the use of EM, this is still ridiculous.

Remember, you have just exchanged fire with the Andromedan. His PA panels are full and he needs battery space to put the power into. And now you are going to engage in a tractor auction to help him clear battery power? Really? And, just to make matters worse, this is using power you can't spare and now can't use for anything else (like that HET to bring weapons to bear)

Even assuming you could win the auction (which you can't) it would be a bad idea.

[storeylf]

The DN should have plenty of energy. There's no reason to leave the corner in turn 1, so it should have held PPDs and full batteries. Then in turn 2, it can slowly leave the corner. Even if the Intruder breaks the tractor, it burns out its batteries and Andromedans WILL feel a power crunch without batteries, even after transferring some energy from PA panels.

During the engagement turn, the DN has 64 power. It needs 8 for PPDs, and 14 saved for phasers. It doesn't need to move fast at all, so it can declare baseline speed 0 or 8. The Andromedan needs 7 power for PA panels, 9 for TRH, 8 for PH2, 2 to hold DisDevs, 6 for EM, and probably 24 for speed and maybe a few for judicious acc/dec. There's no guarantee that the Intruder will be able to break the tractor.

I was also looking at the possibilty of speed 0 for the DN, it at least allows the DN to turn each impulse with a turn mode of 1, whilst keeping oodles of power for HET, Batteries, weapons etc. But it does mean that the Int will have minimal problem lining up for the perfect shot.

As for corner, I wasn't really assuming any particular map type. It certainly keeps the ISC somewhat safer if he is sitting right in the corner, no worries about anything being out of arc, or Int running to rear.

Also, don't forget that the Andro has taken probably 18 or so damage at long range from 2 PPDs earlier. That will add to the internal damage of the first pass.

Unless you get to tractor range, you're not going to be killing more than 2 PPDs. You'll be lucky to even kill 2.

Yup, but you will only be looking at any internals at all if the andro goes for a range 0 or 1 pass. By range 2 the likely ISC volley of 10 ph1s and 4 ph3s will average 60, which with 18 more from PPD is still not enough to score internals (bar burnthrough), allowing for a bit of luck the ISC may score a few. A range 3 attack makes it practically impossible to get through the panels. By going so slow you have more or less surrendered any choice in the range. If you score average or over with the PPDs the andro can hold back a bit, totally safe whilst still dishing out 80 odd damage, at range 3 he can safely allow the ISC a centerline, as the extra 4ph3 won't make enough difference to get through the panels.

The ISC ends up losing a shield and taking 30-40 internals (shield depending) aimed at weapons, 30 internals directed averages 2 PPDs taken out, by 33 internals you are looking at a noticeable chance of 3 PPDs, not to mention sevaral phasers (ph3s, but still weakening the ISC ready for the next attack).

Even if the 2 PPDs do max damage at long range, a range 3 pass for the Int is still very safe, even with a centerline for the DN.

The Andro on the other hand, whilst possibly taking almost as much damage back, will not be looking at more than a couple of burnthrough, and the damage just dissipates away for free whilst he rearms.

Thats why I'm not sure that going slow for the ISC is so good, If he is going to do anything noticeable to the Int then he really needs to be able to push the range to point blank so that he has the maximum chance of busting through the panels, and also the extra oppurtunity the extra moves provide of avoiding an Int centerline.

[mojo jojo]

Sorry, gotta dog-pile on this one.

Ignoring a potential second displacement (of self or ISC) and ignoring the use of EM, this is still ridiculous.

Remember, you have just exchanged fire with the Andromedan. His PA panels are full and he needs battery space to put the power into. And now you are going to engage in a tractor auction to help him clear battery power? Really? And, just to make matters worse, this is using power you can't spare and now can't use for anything else (like that HET to bring weapons to bear)

Even assuming you could win the auction (which you can't) it would be a bad idea.

I must respectfully disagree. The EM thing kinda puts a kibosh on it, but putting that aside, tractoring the Int is a great idea. The Int needs only 8 free space in batteries for the panels to dump which he probably already has available. As the DN player, I would LOVE it if his batteries were completely cleared and he only had 8 power transferred from PA panels. The Int isn't exactly swimming in power without batteries. It is spending 7 on PA panels, 9 on TRH, 8 on PH2, likely 4 on DisDev, and probably 24+ on power in the following turn. He's going to sacrifice something if his batteries only have 8.

Meanwhile, if the tractors succeeded, which is a distinct possiblity (if you discount the EM ruling or if a 6 were rolled on Dispacement), then the DN has an overwhelming phaser advantage at range 0 or 1. A 2nd range 0 or 1 volley would overwhelm the PA panels and likely cripple the Andro.

[mojo jojo]

I was also looking at the possibilty of speed 0 for the DN, it at least allows the DN to turn each impulse with a turn mode of 1, whilst keeping oodles of power for HET, Batteries, weapons etc. But it does mean that the Int will have minimal problem lining up for the perfect shot.

As for corner, I wasn't really assuming any particular map type. It certainly keeps the ISC somewhat safer if he is sitting right in the corner, no worries about anything being out of arc, or Int running to rear.

I was assuming tournament map. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

Also, don't forget that the Andro has taken probably 18 or so damage at long range from 2 PPDs earlier. That will add to the internal damage of the first pass.

Unless you get to tractor range, you're not going to be killing more than 2 PPDs. You'll be lucky to even kill 2.

Yup, but you will only be looking at any internals at all if the andro goes for a range 0 or 1 pass. By range 2 the likely ISC volley of 10 ph1s and 4 ph3s will average 60, which with 18 more from PPD is still not enough to score internals (bar burnthrough), allowing for a bit of luck the ISC may score a few. A range 3 attack makes it practically impossible to get through the panels. By going so slow you have more or less surrendered any choice in the range. If you score average or over with the PPDs the andro can hold back a bit, totally safe whilst still dishing out 80 odd damage, at range 3 he can safely allow the ISC a centerline, as the extra 4ph3 won't make enough difference to get through the panels.

The ISC ends up losing a shield and taking 30-40 internals (shield depending) aimed at weapons, 30 internals directed averages 2 PPDs taken out, by 33 internals you are looking at a noticeable chance of 3 PPDs, not to mention sevaral phasers (ph3s, but still weakening the ISC ready for the next attack).

Even if the 2 PPDs do max damage at long range, a range 3 pass for the Int is still very safe, even with a centerline for the DN.

The Andro on the other hand, whilst possibly taking almost as much damage back, will not be looking at more than a couple of burnthrough, and the damage just dissipates away for free whilst he rearms.

Thats why I'm not sure that going slow for the ISC is so good, If he is going to do anything noticeable to the Int then he really needs to be able to push the range to point blank so that he has the maximum chance of busting through the panels, and also the extra oppurtunity the extra moves provide of avoiding an Int centerline.

With the EM not being able to be tractored, I agree the ISC has to move faster.

[Bolo_MK_XL]

Move a DN at zero (0) and see where the intruder displaces to ---

It won't be to a position the DN can tack to and bring any decent amount of phasers to bear ---

Displacement and facing makes that kinda tactic a losing proposition for the DN --

Not likely the Andro will worry over the lone F the DN can fire ---

[Kang]

Has anyone tried a Dominator vs. an ISC BB? The Dom has a point value of about 450; the ISC BB about 350 (don't have my ship cards to hand as I type). Does that match up with people's actual play experiences?

[terryoc]

I'm playing Andros vs ISC right now in a PBEM game; basically tournament rules at Fleet Scale.

If we assume it's tournament rules/map, then if the ISC sits in a corner at Speed Zero and refuses to engage, the Andromedan player is under no obligation to impale himself on the ISC's guns. In this situation, the ISC player could very easily get called for non-aggression. Even if non-aggression rules are not used, then the scenario simply plays out into a boring draw. I think that starcastling with PPDs would work pretty well against any opponent, not just Andromedans. So I don't think this is strong evidence that the Andro is overpointed. It may simply be that the DNP is too good, or that PPDs in general got too strong in FC.

If standard rules are in use, the ISC is a plasma ship and as such, it must be a location map, which will give the Andromedan more room for sabre dancing.

[Kang]

It's both a plasma ship and a PPD ship, as it's the ISC BB - and yes it is a location map.

It's for a scenario I am designing, and although we have playtested it, we've had to rebalance it anyway - so I was just wondering if anyone else had experience with these two ships in a battle.

The basic premise of the scenario (without giving too much away - I aim to get this one published and don't want to spoil the surprise! ) is that the ISC BB and two DDs must defend two moons. These are spaced about 22 hexes apart and are being scanned by a Dominator and two Mambas, which the ISC must try to prevent from doing that.

[mojo jojo]

I'm playing Andros vs ISC right now in a PBEM game; basically tournament rules at Fleet Scale.

If we assume it's tournament rules/map, then if the ISC sits in a corner at Speed Zero and refuses to engage, the Andromedan player is under no obligation to impale himself on the ISC's guns. In this situation, the ISC player could very easily get called for non-aggression. Even if non-aggression rules are not used, then the scenario simply plays out into a boring draw. I think that starcastling with PPDs would work pretty well against any opponent, not just Andromedans. So I don't think this is strong evidence that the Andro is overpointed. It may simply be that the DNP is too good, or that PPDs in general got too strong in FC.

If standard rules are in use, the ISC is a plasma ship and as such, it must be a location map, which will give the Andromedan more room for sabre dancing.

You're going to see plenty of aggression on turn 2. I just wanted to make sure I had a charged up plasma S, full batteries, and lower holding costs for PPD before I engage.

[terryoc]

Mojo, I figured I'd see some agression this turn... that's why I'm in the centre of the map, to give myself some running room

[Nerroth]

I'd be interested in seeing how well (or otherwise) a Dominator could do against a Juggernaut DN.


Indeed, with the expanding array of Juggernaut Empire ships awaiting the jump to FC, there could be all sorts of interesting matchups between those two factions in the future...

[storeylf]

I really just can't see ISC winning or drawing by sitting in a corner vs Andro. Andros should cream any ISC who have forgone any attempt at making life awkward for the andro! A cornered speed 0 ship/fleet is just a target for you to analyse and work out the correct attack.

[kirbykibble]

Considering that other empire BB's such as the Hydran BB, it can be more powerful. The Hydran BB is 380 points (squadron scale) plus 12 fighters which adds up to 500 points. Also, the Seltorian Battle wagon is worth 500 points. Still, the Dom. has hanger points so it does have a advantage

[Nerroth]

The Dominator is not a battleship; the Andromedan BB is the Devastator, a ship not in FC yet.

As an indicator of how fearsome that ship is, its BPV in Star Fleet Battles is 610!

[Klingon of Gor]

I'm going to disagree with the OP here and say that an Intruder should be able to handle the average Dread. Andros don't handle like other races, and you have to think a little out of the box with them.

It's true that the Dread has more firepower, but what if they can't use it? The Andro might, for example, put his Intruder on the same facing as the Dread, and then disdev into same hex. Now assume that the Intruder has the power to run the same speed as the Dread and buy a point of acceleration, the Dread has to move first. So the Andro can keep himself out of arc for the Dread's forward firing weapons. Even an HET by the DRead won't change this. The Andro now has the firepower advantage. (Note: Don't try this on Lyrans if they have a live ESG)

Now the Dread can turn, slip, HET, whatever. You can stay out of arc for most of his weapons. On the last sub pulse, you'll have to make a choice about where you want to end up. If the Dread is a Klingon, you want to end up facing his number 4 shield, so you follow his moves exactly. With other races, you might sideslip on the last subpulse, as there may be a lot more phasers bearing down the back centerline. (If it's a HYdran Dread, there's no point in eating both phaser G's.) Further Note: If there are fighters trailing behind, this can change the calculus somewhat.

So deliver your alpha strike, and then you disdev out. Or disdev him to cover your withdrawal. or tractor him. Or whatever.

Where Andros fall down is in 450 point squadron games. An Andro squadron might have one Intruder at most. The concentrated fire of a lot of opposing squadrons might fill it's power panels up in a heartbeat, and if the Intruder is wrecked, the Andro squadron is facing a grim future. A Hydran hellbore squadron, for example, can engage the Intruder long before it gets to effective range, and fill up both banks in one impulse.