Plans for PDF ship packs on e23.

mjwest · Post by **mjwest** » Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:03 pm

Well, the issue is not whether a "PDF-only" ship comes out in PDF or laminate. The issue is whether a "PDF-only" ship comes out in PDF or not at all.

Laminated ship cards are very expensive. That means for ADB to make a laminated card, they have to believe they will sell the laminated card. Right now, they have a lot of evidence that says laminated cards are not selling. Hydran Attack and Booster 91/92 has been teaching ADB some very harsh lessons.

If we are lucky, all this means is that the economy sucks, and things will improve as the economy improves. If we are not lucky, this really means not enough people are interested in SFU empires outside the "Big Three".

JimDauphinais · Post by **JimDauphinais** » Fri Sep 10, 2010 4:02 am

This is an interesting and unfortunate revelation regarding Hydran Attack. While the economy must certainly be a factor (maybe the principal factor), I do wonder how much of the sales loss is due to the fact that Hydran Attack breaks the non-dependency tradition of Attack modules by being made dependent upon having Distant Kingdoms. I know in theory this is not entirely true because of the existence of the Reference Rulebook, but ADB advertising declares that unlike for other Attack modules, you need Distant Kingdoms in addition to either one of the Border boxed games or Academy.

I am not an ex-SFB player or otherwise had past SFU experience, but I find the Hydrans and Lyrans to be fascinating empires from a FC perspective and have personally found Hydran Attack to be critical in regard to filing their respective laminated ship selections out. Nevertheless, in the current economy I can see casual players staying focused on the five core empires.

dharras · Post by **dharras** » Fri Sep 10, 2010 5:14 am

Kang wrote:Sorry, but I like less and less of what I'm reading. I don't like pdfs, I love the laminates in the products. I find the idea of making certain ships pdf-only absolute anathema, especially as the price point is $10 - nearly the price of a laminated, physical booster-pack in the UK!!

The price point of a normal booster is $9.95; the pdf ones would thus cost about the same, but give you more ships. If its the choice of this, or no ships, then its fine by me.

Here's a question though - whats going to happen about counters? Could enough 'new' ships in these products justify the creation of say Megahex H2?

ericphillips · Post by **ericphillips** » Fri Sep 10, 2010 6:24 am

I think the PDF should have counter images too. I would print them to stickers and put them on 1/2" or 1" wood squares. I dont think ADB will make a counter sheet for these for sale... really, the cost of printing would never be recouped.

I am all in favor of getting more ship out there, PDF or not. But I am not buying everything that comes out. I am not buying any Middle Years PDFs. I'll get the Frax set if it comes out;also, I will pass on any Borders of Madness stuff.

Overall, I have not bought many of the Boosters. I have #1, #2 and #3, then I got #91 and #92 (I really wanted that NCD). The only other booster I bought was a month ago. I needed an extra Fed NCA for a scenario in the game store, so I bought Booster #7 because it was there. If I need it, I;ll get it. I did pick up Tholian Attack and Orion Attack last month, though I don't really care much for what they add to the game.

I do love Distant Kingdoms. The Lyrans rock. Hydran attack was a bit of a letdown. I wanted more Lyran options. What I got was a ton of Hydrans, which I never play and no one I have played has ever chosen.

wedge_hammersteel · Post by **wedge_hammersteel** » Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:13 am

Why wood squares for counters? Inexpensive blank regular counters are easily obtainable on the net. Printble high resolution pdf counters sheets would be fine with me.

ericphillips · Post by **ericphillips** » Fri Sep 10, 2010 12:40 pm

wedge_hammersteel wrote:Why wood squares for counters?

Cuz you can get a bag full of them cheap at Michaels.

mojo_billbo · Post by **mojo_billbo** » Fri Sep 10, 2010 2:25 pm

ericphillips wrote:
wedge_hammersteel wrote:Why wood squares for counters?
Cuz you can get a bag full of them cheap at Michaels.

and it gives us something to look at when our wives drag us to stores like AC Moore and Michaels...

Post by **Steve Cole** » Fri Sep 10, 2010 3:39 pm

Kang: So do I but reality is reality. It costs ADB $2,000 to produce Booster 92 and that product produced only $1000 in sales. So unless you're willing to write a $1,000 check to "sponsor" Booster 93, I don't see it happening.

Hydran Attack did not sell well, and there are serious doubts that ISC Attack (which might have one or two Gorn and one or two Romulan ships) would would sell any better, BUT, the earliest it would be done is Origins 2011 so we don't have to "evaluate the market and make a decision" before next spring.

Post by **Steve Cole** » Fri Sep 10, 2010 3:43 pm

The minimum print run for counters AND cards is 1000 and when I look at sales of 243 copies of Booster 92, well, my conversation with leanna about booster 93 did not go well.

As for counters, I'll do them and make them available somehow (either with the packs or on the website) at no extra cost. They're incredibly easy to do.

wedge_hammersteel · Post by **wedge_hammersteel** » Fri Sep 10, 2010 3:59 pm

I will check out the wood squares the next time the wife drags me to Michael's or Hobby Lobby. The trip would be less painful that way.

mjwest · Post by **mjwest** » Fri Sep 10, 2010 5:09 pm

Steve Cole wrote:Hydran Attack did not sell well, and there are serious doubts that ISC Attack (which might have one or two Gorn and one or two Romulan ships) would would sell any better, BUT, the earliest it would be done is Origins 2011 so we don't have to "evaluate the market and make a decision" before next spring.

Just for the record, it would not be difficult to do an ISC Attack that included at least two Feds, Gorns, and Romulans (each), and still have the necessary ISC ships. Sure, the Vudar get screwed, but oh, well. I think that could help the sales of ISC Attack while still giving enough ISC ships to help their fleet.

As you say, this is a decision for the future. But please keep in mind you can easily include a half-dozen Fed/Rom/Gorn ships while giving the ISC love.

pinecone · Post by **pinecone** » Fri Sep 10, 2010 6:25 pm

And the Viper. We need the viper

mjwest · Post by **mjwest** » Fri Sep 10, 2010 6:42 pm

pinecone wrote:And the Viper. We need the viper

Actually, no, we don't need the Viper.

But we should include it. I am trying to keep my posts on this topic short, so I don't put everything I am thinking down, but, to be a little more expansive, I figure a mix of:
- Six Fed/Gorn/Romulan (TBD)
- Two Andro (Viper, SatBase)
- Eight ISC (TBD)
- Various bonus cards
This would give a significant presence to "classic" empires to help broaden the appeal, but also include a heavy ISC presence to expand its fleet, and give the two "missing" Andromedan ships.

Hydran Attack only had a single "classic" empire ship, and it was a small ship (the F5W). Putting in six here would give a much bigger presence, and also include some major ships. (Possible choices include the Fed NAL, and the Romulan K7R and Vulture.)

But, again, this is not something ADB is going to deal with right now, and it is off-topic. So, let's just let this go until ADB is ready to deal with it again.

JimDauphinais · Post by **JimDauphinais** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 5:18 pm

Thought in Regard to the Risk with Laminated Cards: Has ADB considered possibly pursuing a preorder system? GMT Games and MMP each have very well run preorder systems that have dramatically lowered the risk of not recovering upfront development and printing costs. A preorder system can be configured such that the preorders can come through stores in addition to direct ADB webstore orders. Note that neither game company is directly competing with ADB and they are generally approachable if you are looking for more details.

I am only suggesting consideration of a preorder system for items that have a very high risk of not covering their upfront development and printing costs. In other words, for items that ADB might not otherwise risk producing outside of e23 (e.g., Boosters #93 through #95). If the number of preorders received rise to the point to cover the development and printing costs, you proceed with the the project. If not, you cancel the project or consdier other options like e23. Customers and stores are not charged for the preorders until a month before delivery (or at the time of delivery).

Early Years: I see from the Blog that work has begun on a early years e23 pack. I think that is a great idea. I just thought I remind you to make sure you include the weapons tables for any early years weapons that are not already included in FC that are utilized by the ships in the pack(s).

mjwest · Post by **mjwest** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:12 pm

JimDauphinais wrote:Thought in Regard to the Risk with Laminated Cards: Has ADB considered possibly pursuing a preorder system?

This has been suggested many, many times before. The big problem is that it is a huge accounting nightmare, or it is really just a collection of promises. If you collect money up front, you have to keep account of it, and be able to refund it if nothing happens. That is actually much more expensive than you think. If no money is collected, then it is just a bunch of promises which, quite frankly, will have a very low hit rate. Either way, a pre-order system is fraught with peril for ADB.

Early Years: I see from the Blog that work has begun on a early years e23 pack. I think that is a great idea. I just thought I remind you to make sure you include the weapons tables for any early years weapons that are not already included in FC that are utilized by the ships in the pack(s).

Yes. That is understood. It is an important detail that is not being ignored.