Looking for old style of Fed OCL

[Jeffr0]

As a retailer, I know it costs ADB in sales of models. It is difficult to see the incredibly up to date FedCom that was made for the modern marketplace have a less than modern miniature component. In every demo game I run I get "wow, great game!" and then the "ugh, what else can I get" response to the minis. Please don't take this the wrong way, I personally own the entire line of FedCom minis and stock the full range in my store, but the small fortune I've spent acquiring earlier era models is lost revenue for ADB.

Retailer anecdote : We stock the full range of Spartan Games ships in the same section as the ADB models. When customers approach the section, ADB products are the first thing they pick up, as the packaging and presentation is excellent. They then turn the package around, see the back, and either put them back on the shelf or ask if I have them on display in one of the cases. If they look at the display, they see ADB painted models right next to other brands, and then go back to look at other lines. In the war of "Oh! This is cool!" ADB is at a clear disadvantage from the lower quality.

If they play in a demo for space ship games, FedCom is usually the winner, though the ship models prove to be a difficult sale as our much of my
customer base are avid modelers.

Dang.

I was just about to jump into SFB minis, too.

I guess though...

a) My son won't notice the lack of quality-- and I'm mainly getting them to keep him into my hobby

b) Even mediocre minis will make my demos more fun and attractive

c) I'm a lousy modeler and will actually benefit from the single piece dumbed down aspect of the new line

d) There's not a lot of gamers where I am, so dropping $60 on a new game in place of the minis won't really get me much fun to begin with.

[djdood]

I don't think there is a "lack of quality". The realities of manufacturing and marketing them in 2010 mean they are different than they were in 1984, but they are still very nice miniature starships. I know I and the other sculptors take great pride in our work and wouldn't be doing it if the line wasn't good.

[philgore]

Dang.

I was just about to jump into SFB minis, too.

I guess though...

a) My son won't notice the lack of quality-- and I'm mainly getting them to keep him into my hobby

b) Even mediocre minis will make my demos more fun and attractive

c) I'm a lousy modeler and will actually benefit from the single piece dumbed down aspect of the new line

d) There's not a lot of gamers where I am, so dropping $60 on a new game in place of the minis won't really get me much fun to begin with.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, please don't mistake my desire for higher end models as a reason to avoid ADB minis!!! They are good models, but I do much higher end painting than most folk, and I'm surrounded by others that do the same. Again, I personally own every single Booster Box and Border Box for the entire FedCom line and plan to get it fully painted by the end of next year. They certainly work for what they are and represent the only line of ships readily available to play this truly excellent game. I also fervently believe that ADB could benefit in today's marketplace from more modern figures to compete with.

I'm a Space Ship Game Nerd that has maintained a tradition in my store for the last 16 years to play space ship games every fall. I tried SFB back in the middle 90's and discarded it as not my cup of tea, way to complex. I have played all the rest, from Full Thrust, Bab5 (every ed.), BFG, and a host of others, changing the game every year. In the fall of '08 gave FedCom a try. It was EXACTLY the game I had been looking for. I sold my collections of the other games and models and have devoted my space hobby dollars to ADB product ever since. In my humble opinion, you have found the best game on the market, do not second guess your decision to play it.

[Starfighter Decals]

I don't think there is a "lack of quality". The realities of manufacturing and marketing them in 2010 mean they are different than they were in 1984, but they are still very nice miniature starships. I know I and the other sculptors take great pride in our work and wouldn't be doing it if the line wasn't good.

Really? I would love to spend some time over the next few days pointing them out you in side by side comparisons [deleted, on the moderation of the Forum. -- J.Sexton]. And please don't try that well worn argument about how things are different today than '84. That is a strawman argument. I am in the industry, I know how this stuff works, what a good quality master looks like and what good quality work is. It's how I made my name in the industry and built my reputation. I have more awards for my work that you have minis [Deleted, personal attack. -- J.Sexton]

[Lots of commentary on models that is not of decals has been deleted per the restriction placed on Mark in January 2009. -- J.Sexton] When displayed together with the ones I have made are modifications from those same kits and get comments on how much better those look than the ones I suffered thru assembly and painting for the Store Photos. I get asked for resin copies and always refuse because I don't have permission to make any, [personal poke at SVC and ADB removed. -- J.Sexton]

Look, I would not point these things out publically unless I was willing to do something about it. I know it takes time and money. I have 100s of hours invested in Star Fleet Universe Decal Artwork. I have almost $4,000 in inventory just in Fed Decals alone. I have volunteered to clean up, improve (remove mold seams and flash), and re-cast some of the old SL2200 kits in resin on my dime if permission could be obtained. I am willing to back up what I say. What I don't see is ADB stepping up to the plate when asked about undertaking this project. I know personally SVC has been asked about improving the line. I was privy to such discussions. I know others has inquired as well. SVC has stated publically he really isn't intersted in the minis, but it keeps food on the table and keeps the cash flowing into ADB, so it's allowed to continue. The only reason I own anything from ADB is because of the mini line started back in '80's using the Gamescience minis and new sculpts form Mr. Kerr, et. al. Selling decals for those very same items has put me in the position to talk to many fellow enthusists who basically did the same thing. They are a picky as I am, some more so. Many of our fellow mini collectors, painters, and master pattern makes have moved on to other interest because of what is going on or has happened to the Starline Miniature Brand.

Believe me, I rejoice when I seen a new mini that is well mastered, well cast, and fills a much needed gap in the line (fighters, shuttles, and weapon markers for example), but I also groan when I see another mash-up of an old mini that I know will only hurt sales. I would love to see the line improve and rejuvinated by having some of the classics re-cast in resin (molded in color even!) and I'm willing to take the risk as long as I am allowed the reward of doing it. But it will never happen, so I will continue to modify the old minis I can find at swap meets and on-line auctions for my own modeling pleasure.

An old wise man once told me you are either part of the problem or part of the solution. I am trying to be part of the solution by offering to fix the shortcommings. [personal slam at ADB removed. -- J.Sexton]

[Edited to remove material that is obviously not about Mark's product line. Material that is tangently about his product line is left in, subject to SVC's review. -- J.Sexton]

[Savedfromwhat]

Mark, I do agree with 90% of what you are saying. I look at some of the plastic models made by scifi skunkwerks and think what could have been. I have commissioned work for some tiger striped lyrans and they came out looking good but he complained.that there was pretty much just a flat surface and nothing else. That being said the SFU is a strange animal.with wicked weird liscencing and copyright interactions. I understand that the quality is going to be somewhat low and I will never see refit federation engines. If all the minis had the quality of the CC saucer they would be top knotch.

But I don't think anything can be changed just do to the buisiness model of adb, they have too much money invested in the current model line to allow someone else to compete with them. They would go out of business and we would be sad.

Filling a post with sarcasm and rhetoric about how ADB wont let you do this or would ban you for that isn't being productive. I love your contributions to the SFU and you deserve to be respected for stepping up and providing a service that people wanted, but I think that svc and the rest of ADB also deserve that respect even if we don't agree with every decision.

Nick

[djdood]

[Personal attack deleted above, no longer applies. -- J.Sexton.]

Stop putting words in my mouth Mark. You take great issue with other people doing it to you (and laid into me the one time I wrote incorrect information about you on another forum).

[No longer necessary. -- J.Sexton]

I have no idea why you want to drag me into your drama with ADB, but stop. Now. Before this gets personal.

[Edited to remove parts that referred to deleted parts of another post and which no longer apply. None of this was punitive; it was just housekeeping. -- J.Sexton]

[Jean]

Gentlemen, cool your jets right now. Remember if there is an issue, please contact a moderator. I don't typically read this topic because usually you all get along so well -- I apologize for letting this get so far out of hand.

Mark Tutton, if you have an issue with ADB, Inc.'s products or with SVC, take it to email. The disrespect of our sculptors' work stops this very instant. Personally, I believe you owe them an apology for implying their work is sub-par.

Discussion about how we run the Forum is not allowed. That includes discussions such as "this would get me banned."

It has also been explained (I believe) once before just why we cannot give someone the right to produce resin ships and "reap the rewards". However, in case it has not ...

The way our license works, NO ONE can create and sell our products for us. Why do you think we print the "powered by GURPS" books and not SJG? Why do you think we sell various RPG sourcebooks instead of selling the sourcebook concept to various companies? Why do you think we haven't farmed out the popular miniature concepts to various big-name companies? Do you really, truly think the company doesn't like money?

We have the right to sell game-related materials. We do not have the right to sell Paramount-controlled intellectual property to a third party. Any minis that are manufactured and sold by a third party are for materials and empires ADB created from scratch. The minis I know of (the ISC "nations") have been for models that the third company had already designed and we made our "new" empires' ships match theirs.

No company in its right mind would forgo the sales of the Federation, Romulan, Klingon, Gorn, and Tholian ships. We don't have the right to sell off the Kzintis as that is a Larry Niven thing.

Mark, I furthermore remind you of a post made by SVC in this topic: Additional Decals available again for Federation Commader

Post Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:19 pm
As of NOW, Mark, your posts on ADB's boards are limited to product line updates. Further extraneous garbage, phony accusations, and personal attacks are not allowed and will be deleted.

As far as I know, that restriction still holds. As SVC made the restriction, only he can lift it. Contact him by email to discuss it further.

I will be editing your post above to reflect your restrictions. Rest assured that SVC has the complete text. You may appeal my actions to SVC.

Jean
WebMom

[Edited to correct spelling issue]

[Steve Cole]

Ahem: "SVC has stated publically he really isn't intersted in the minis, but it keeps food on the table and keeps the cash flowing into ADB, so it's allowed to continue."

SVC has never said any such thing.

Nobody from ADB has told Mark "If you do X, we'll delete it and kick you out." Indeed, after numerous personal attacks on me by Mark, he's still here. Go figure. Of course, when rules are broken and bad behavior is posted, that has to be edited out by Jean or Mike W, even when I do it. Go figure. (Perhaps one of the forum members expressed concern to Mark over what ADB might do if Mark tries to start a fight? Dunno. Wasn't party to it. Just like the other target of Mark's attacks was never a "secret agent of ADB posting bad things about Mark because SVC told him to." Pure paranoid delusion there.)

SVC is also unaware of Mark Tutton ever offering to do resin versions of our ships. If he wants to discuss a business deal by Email, he can do so. I'll be happy to talk with him. I've said before (numerous times) that I want to see a line of resin ships, but I have never seen any provider of such "step up to the plate". Several potential providers have contacted me but none of them have followed through. So, I guess, I either get an email from him or he shuts up? (I did, over the last half hour, go thorugh over 50 Emails over the last ten years containing the word "resin" and not one of them was from, to, or about Mark.)

As for quality, this is an issue every product line has, some items being better than others. (Way back when I collected "minitanks" the M47s were just plain awful compared to the M48s, and none of them held a candle to the PzKwVs (of which I still have over fifty). For what it's worth, the rather simplistic but elegant PzKwV lacked the detail and accuracy of the PzKwIV. Ah, good times....)

I'm happy with our line overall, but think some ships could be improved, and sometimes when a sculptor has done all he's going to do, it's a choice of manufacturing what he did or nothing at all (and more often, it's a decision to cancel planned production of a substandard sculpt.) The problem is that sales don't justify doing it. It's not a matter of "this ship is awful, it's sales are low, and at the current rate of sale of this awful low-selling ship it would take 97 years to pay for new sculpting and molds." It's matter that "This ship is awful and at the current rate of sales of the best ship for that empire it would take 97 years to pay for new sculpting and molds." Over the years, we have spent thousands of dollars replacing molds and resculpting ships. We're still trying to break even on some of those.

Yes, some 2400 ships are 2300 or 2200 ships that were modified to reduce the piece count. This is what players said they wanted, and responded positively to. The new single-piece D7 outsells the old "fall apart D7" and so forth. The one-piece Ranger has eliminated the constant bombardment of "can I buy a spare engine to replace the one I lost" emails. And so forth.

As for the Old Fed CL, I personally think that the original multi-part CL sucks and much prefer the current one. That said, we did look into the idea of seeing if we could find the old CL molds and have Bruce spin up a few dozen for those who want them, but when we asked for people to commit to how many they would buy, nobody answered up. If somebody wants to send me a separate email about that, I'll put it in the "wednesday file" and some wednesday (probably next year due to the backlog) I'll see if Mike can find those molds and we'll discuss option.

[hobbybob]

OK folks, we need to step back and look at things rationally. I've been collecting SFU ships since the old Gamescience days... Even when I'm not playing the game, I'm collecting the ships. Now I've got a little business selling decals. My point is, these models are fine. More to the point, they are available. Maybe they aren't perfect, but you can get them. ADB makes them available for us, and I'm grateful to them for doing so. Besides, retooling the existing models on a grand scale would probably just lead to increasing their price.

Personally, I like the sturdier models being produced these days. I have boxes of broken-off Kzinti drone racks, waiting for the day I'm feeling patient enough to figure out which goes to which.

The long and the short of it is, as with all hobbies, you get out of it what you put into it.

[marcus_aurelius]

I really like my 1 or 2 piece miniatures.

I like the fact that they are study miniatures for when (NOT if) they get knocked over, etc. on the game board. I wouldn't want miniatures that have so many small pieces that I would be afraid to actually use them for fear of breaking them.

I had some of the old starline 2200 from the 80s and all of the multi-piece ships have one or more items broken off of them too.

Another good reason for me...
My 2 year old son really likes them too. Every night he wants me to get my "dada ships" down from their shelves so he can compare them with his "Jack ships" (MicroMachines from StarTrek, StarWars and B5). I always say "look, no touch" but something always gets touched.

He also likes the 1" counters. He knows the counters well enough to specifically sort out the 3 Federation BC counters from all the other federation counters. He has claimed the BCs as "Jack ships" too.
Sorting the counters he calls "playing dada game."

[Jean]

I look forward to the day when your son is old enough to join us on the Forum.

I'm patient!

[Jeffr0]

Personally, I like the sturdier models being produced these days. I have boxes of broken-off Kzinti drone racks, waiting for the day I'm feeling patient enough to figure out which goes to which.

The long and the short of it is, as with all hobbies, you get out of it what you put into it.

Yep. I'm not modeling. I'm making game pieces for a game that I will actually play.

(And after dropping my Ogre Mark III... I realize that sturdy does count for something....)

[djdood]

Ouch. How many guns did you have to fix on that mini?

I shudder to think of dropping mine.

[Jeffr0]

Just the main battery.

[philgore]

These are all valid and excellent points, but there is a significant number of customers (and potential customers) that would like to purchase higher quality miniatures set in the Star Fleet universe. Based on the prices the older SFU models fetch in the secondary market (let alone the FASA kits!), it would appear there are also customers that are fine with paying a higher price for what they deem to be superior products. It is a shame to see the huge amounts of money spent in the secondary market that ADB doesnt get a dime of. Heck, I would love to be giving even more of my hobby dollars to ADB, not some dude on eBay.

I think that there is room to service both groups and expand the customer base for FedCom. Perhaps Mr. Cole and company can find a way to do it profitably and further their signature brand.
[/u]