BoM question

[storeylf]

I'm thinking about bringing in a Fed carrier in our campaign game that will be using direct fire drones.

Are there any hints on how those rules might be modified (if at all) in light of the ADD change? If there are any possible changes then I'm happy to give them a play through within our campaign.

[mjwest]

Not really. Since phasers don't get an "offensive" shot at the drones, I don't see why ADDs should.

So, no modification for the direct-fire drone rules.

[Targ]

One suggestion, if drones are launched at 4-5 on impact the ADD is allowed 2 shots. The only problem here I can see is that in BOM direct fire Plasma-D’s become a problem and this opens up a big can of worms that is only going to be resolved be some complex SFBisums.

PS. The first ADD at 1-3 the second at 1-4.

[mjwest]

Again, no such option is allowed for phasers. Therefore, there is no need to allow such an option for ADDs. You can't have it both ways.

[storeylf]

I sorted of expected MWests reply, they are now an offensive weapon as well, and they work as offensive weapons do for direct fire drones, so the benefit is that friendly ships within 2 hexes can shoot them.

However 3 other questions came to mind.

1) Aegis- they can already fire ADDs to range 2, but before that was using the 1-4 hit chance (as that was all there was), does that still apply to their ADDs, or do they now use the 1-3 offensive mode? NB might be covered in the rev6 book which I haven't seen yet.

2) Direct fire drones allow other units (allied to the target) to fire offensive weapons at the impacted drones, but it doesn't say anything about the target unit, is the target allowed to fire any offensive weapons at direct fire drones?

3) Offensive weapons at direct fire drones, is this only for drones that were fired at range 5-8, or any range (obvioulsy a 1 impulse impact would preclude offensive weapons under normal drone mechanics)?

[mjwest]

1) Aegis- they can already fire ADDs to range 2, but before that was using the 1-4 hit chance (as that was all there was), does that still apply to their ADDs, or do they now use the 1-3 offensive mode? NB might be covered in the rev6 book which I haven't seen yet.

This is in the RRB6a. It uses the 1-3 to hit. On the plus side, they can fire at tractored drones and suicide shuttles.

2) Direct fire drones allow other units (allied to the target) to fire offensive weapons at the impacted drones, but it doesn't say anything about the target unit, is the target allowed to fire any offensive weapons at direct fire drones?

Well, it is there to allow allied units to fire on the drones after they impact. So, no, the target cannot do so. The target uses the Defensive Fire phase, and the allies can help in the successive Offensive Fire phase.

3) Offensive weapons at direct fire drones, is this only for drones that were fired at range 5-8, or any range (obvioulsy a 1 impulse impact would preclude offensive weapons under normal drone mechanics)?

Nothing is specified, so it would appear to be for any drones. That is what I will go with.

[storeylf]

2) Direct fire drones allow other units (allied to the target) to fire offensive weapons at the impacted drones, but it doesn't say anything about the target unit, is the target allowed to fire any offensive weapons at direct fire drones?

Well, it is there to allow allied units to fire on the drones after they impact. So, no, the target cannot do so. The target uses the Defensive Fire phase, and the allies can help in the successive Offensive Fire phase.

Um you confused me there, the target uses the defensive fire phase, after that there will not be any drones left (barring tractors) so how do the other units help in the successive offensive fire phase?

The rule (i'm looking at) allows other units to fire offensive weapons during the defensive fire phase to represent them firing at drones on the way in (i.e. in an offensive fire phase before impact), I was wondering why the target wouldn't be able to do the same? It would have also been able to fire at them on the way in with its offensive weaponary had they been on the map and handled normally.

[mjwest]

The rule (i'm looking at) allows other units to fire offensive weapons during the defensive fire phase to represent them firing at drones on the way in (i.e. in an offensive fire phase before impact), I was wondering why the target wouldn't be able to do the same? It would have also been able to fire at them on the way in with its offensive weaponary had they been on the map and handled normally.

Now you are confusing me.

First, I don't see anything that says "defensive fire phase". All the rules says is "[a]fter impact, the drones are treated as normal drones except other units (...) may fire normal offensive weapons fire at fighter-launched drones (...)." However, I will grant that interpretation as, quite frankly, it makes more sense.

The real confusion is, what are you trying to accomplish? The target ship doesn't need to fire offensive weapons at the drones because they already get to fire in the defensive fire phase. Are you trying to fire your heavy weapons, too? Are you trying to get two shots? What's the gain.

So, while I will modify my explanation to say that the other ships can fire in the defensive fire phase, no, the target ship cannot fire offensive weapons during the defensive fire phase. It just gets defensive fire.

[storeylf]

First, I don't see anything that says "defensive fire phase". All the rules says is "[a]fter impact, the drones are treated as normal drones except other units (...) may fire normal offensive weapons fire at fighter-launched drones (...)." However, I will grant that interpretation as, quite frankly, it makes more sense.

Makes more sense than what? What other interpretation would there be? direct fire drones aren't on the map to be shot until they impact, and they are either destroyed or deal their damage in the defensive fire phase - before offensive fire comes around (so it wouldn't apply then). So how would other ships be able to use offensive weaponary apart from during defensive fire? Was there some other intent that escapes me?

If they can use offiensive weaponry during defensive fire then they can actually do more than aegis can against normal drones - they can fire heavy weapons at drones that hit straight away without them ever having been "on the map" for an offensive fire phase. That was why I was also asking about whether it only applied to DFD that took 2 impulses to hit.

If you want to look at it another way, why would the D7 next to me get to fire its disrupters against a DFD (which it may well have done against a normal droneon the way in during offensive fire) but for some reason I'm not allowed to (when it might have shot against a normal drone durin offensive fire).

I realise they are playtest rules, and there may be some 'balance' argument as to what they can and cannot do. But from a conceptual point this aspect sounds a bit bizarre at the moment.

The rule states the offensive fire is to represent drones being shot on the way in. That in my mind represents that a drone can normally be shot by any weapon during offensive fire up until it impacts, but not from impact onwards. That of course would not apply if the drone hit the impulse after launch, but if it did apply it would apply to the target as much as any friendly ships.

[edit]

The real confusion is, what are you trying to accomplish?

To be clear I'm not after accomplishing anything beyond clarification, DFDs are about to get used in our campaign by both of us by the looks, and I was just scanning over the rules again, and spotted a couple of bits in need of checking. As the way it is currently worded doesn't fit in with existing drones mechanics (even allowing for being off map drones). That may be deliberate, or it may just be badly worded, or something not yet thought about fully by the rules writer?

[storeylf]

Thinking about this a bit more this morning, are we talking a little at cross purposes?

I'm not looking to get 2 shots or anything like that. The bit that does confuse me is the 'offensive weaponary' as that includes disrupters/photons etc. I cannot see why the target cannot use its disrupters/photons against incoming drones 'on the way in' yet friendly ships can? Are you thinking 'offensive weapons' as meaning just phasers/ADDs, and not including heavy weapons? Your replies on this point would make a bit more sense to me if that was the case.

Firing heavy weapons at drones may seem a little uncommon in standalone games, but in campaign games where ship survival becomes quite a key aspect, and against DFD drones which auto hit, I can see ships wanting to also use heavy weapons to fend of a wave of fighter drones that they may not other wise be able to handle.

Neither am I quite seeing the friendly ships shooting 'on the way in' if the drones impacted on the first impulse as they would never have got to fire in such a case normally. Again given you seem to have had some other interpretation of what the friendly help rule was meaning/intending (that still escapes me) maybe you were misunderstanding my query.

Given these are playtest rules and I'm intending on posting feedback on our experiences, it would be useful for some feedback on what was intended by the above rules, or why they are as they are in the first place.