Question from yesterday games :

[IKerensky]

All rulebook 5th edition, and from head (NRBOH).

-Battlecruiser aren't allowed free HET, what about romulan dreadnought or monsters ? specifically the planet-eater.

- What happen to a tractored seeking weapon when the ship that tractored it turn ?

- Planet-Eater : what happen when he lose a tractor bid at range 3 ?

- Tractored ships, the rules refer to the bigger/heavier ship, how do we determine which it is ? with monsters ?

[mjwest]

- Battleships are not allowed the free HET. Dreadnoughts and battlecruisers do have the free HET. The ability of monsters to HET will be covered in their rules. Unless there is a special rule for that monster, and if it can HET, then it gets the one free HET, too.

- It depends. Was the drone tractored before it impacted, or after? If it is an impacted drone that was tractored in Defensive Fire, then the drone will stay on the shield it originally impacted. If it is a drone that was tractored in the Other Functions phase before it impacted, then the drone (like any other object or ship) will maintain its relative position.

- You can't tractor at range 3. In FC, all tractors are range 0 or 1. As for what happens if the tractor attempt fails, it is no different that if a ship loses a tractor attempt. Really, I don't know what you are asking. Also note that some monsters cannot be tractored at all.

- There may be a special rule for space dragons, but in general monsters are gonna be much bigger than any ship. (Assuming it can be tractored at all.)

[IKerensky]

- It depends. Was the drone tractored before it impacted, or after? If it is an impacted drone that was tractored in Defensive Fire, then the drone will stay on the shield it originally impacted. If it is a drone that was tractored in the Other Functions phase before it impacted, then the drone (like any other object or ship) will maintain its relative position.

- You can't tractor at range 3. In FC, all tractors are range 0 or 1. As for what happens if the tractor attempt fails, it is no different that if a ship loses a tractor attempt. Really, I don't know what you are asking. Also note that some monsters cannot be tractored at all.

2- will maintain its relative position. : that is the tricky part : what is relative position ?

Lets say my ship is going toward A, I stop the drone at 1 hex range while he is facing my shield 2 (the drone is going direction E). It means the drone is in direction B of me 1 hex range. I turn to the left and advance :

Did the drone :

- Stay facing my shield number 2 and to do so is translated 1 hex to directly in direction A of me (North, Top map), while now going direction D.
- Just follow my move and now face my shield number 3, still facing E, and still direction B relative to me.

Both application would satisfy the "maintain his relative position".

3- You can tractor at range 3 if you are the Planete Eater, he got range 3 tractor beams.

4- How do we determine which ship is bigger than another ? there is nothing on the rules about this peculiar information while it is required by the tractor rules.

[duxvolantis]

- What happen to a tractored seeking weapon when the ship that tractored it turn ?

- Tractored ships, the rules refer to the bigger/heavier ship, how do we determine which it is ? with monsters ?

I was going to answer your first question but I wanted to re-read FERRB first and realized that the definition of how the seeking weapon is dragged is open to interpretation and could use clarification. In SFB the two objects acted as if they were on a swivel and the tractoring ship could turn which would, effectively, present a new shield to the seeker. Not sure if that is how it works in FC or if it works differently at range 0 (an FC addition) than at range 1.

As for the second question the definition of "larger" ship is based on move cost, so a heavy cruiser (move cost 1) is larger than a destroyer (move cost .5). Monsters that can be tractored are those that allocate energy for movement (5D3c) so my guess would be that monster size would also be based on their energy cost for movement.

[mjwest]

2- will maintain its relative position. : that is the tricky part : what is relative position ?

You tractor a drone at range 1, off your #1 shield, with your ship heading "A". Your next move is to make a "right" (starboard) turn and move. Now the drone is still at range one, in direction "A" from your ship, but is off your #6 shield, and your ship is now heading "B".

Other case: The drone impacted your #1 shield, with your ship heading "A". You can't kill it (for whatever reason) so you tractor it instead. The drone is now "stuck" to your #1 shield regardless of what movement you do in the following impulse. You can even HET, and the drone is still "stuck" to your #1 shield.

3- You can tractor at range 3 if you are the Planete Eater, he got range 3 tractor beams.

My bad. Forgot about that special rule.

4- How do we determine which ship is bigger than another ? there is nothing on the rules about this peculiar information while it is required by the tractor rules.

The in-rule definition of "bigger" is always movement class. What is the movement class of the planet killer? (Seriously, I don't remember, and the rulebook with the scenario is at home.)

BTW, what is the revision of the rules you are using? I ask because tractors have been the single most problematic rule in FC (in my opinion), and many of these questions have been answered over the revisions.

[mjwest]

I was going to answer your first question but I wanted to re-read FERRB first and realized that the definition of how the seeking weapon is dragged is open to interpretation and could use clarification. In SFB the two objects acted as if they were on a swivel and the tractoring ship could turn which would, effectively, present a new shield to the seeker. Not sure if that is how it works in FC or if it works differently at range 0 (an FC addition) than at range 1.

Yes, this is how it works. The only exception is impacted seeking weapons, and that is required by the nature of the its abstraction. For non-impacted drones (and any other object or ship), this is how it works.

As for the second question the definition of "larger" ship is based on move cost, so a heavy cruiser (move cost 1) is larger than a destroyer (move cost .5). Monsters that can be tractored are those that allocate energy for movement (5D3c) so my guess would be that monster size would also be based on their energy cost for movement.

Yes. Use the movement class, as it is defined in the rules.

[duxvolantis]

I was going to answer your first question but I wanted to re-read FERRB first and realized that the definition of how the seeking weapon is dragged is open to interpretation and could use clarification. In SFB the two objects acted as if they were on a swivel and the tractoring ship could turn which would, effectively, present a new shield to the seeker. Not sure if that is how it works in FC or if it works differently at range 0 (an FC addition) than at range 1.

Yes, this is how it works. The only exception is impacted seeking weapons, and that is required by the nature of the its abstraction. For non-impacted drones (and any other object or ship), this is how it works.

As for the second question the definition of "larger" ship is based on move cost, so a heavy cruiser (move cost 1) is larger than a destroyer (move cost .5). Monsters that can be tractored are those that allocate energy for movement (5D3c) so my guess would be that monster size would also be based on their energy cost for movement.

Yes. Use the movement class, as it is defined in the rules.

ty for the clarifications as always.

[duxvolantis]

BTW, what is the revision of the rules you are using? I ask because tractors have been the single most problematic rule in FC (in my opinion), and many of these questions have been answered over the revisions.

Tractors were always one of the rules that for new folks the hexmap examples were clearer for the average player than deciphering the rules.

Now FC is vastly simplified, but I think there are some assumptions that are logical but not clearly spelled-out.

[IKerensky]

Thanks for the answers

We played the tractored drones the way you did but were a bit disapointed because it seems a bit silly, but it is a lot easier.

BTW there is still the problem of the Tractor Bid at range 3 between a ship and the Planet-Killer, but I dont think we will see this one again before very long.

[mjwest]

I forgot to check the planet killer tractor rule. But, assuming the rule simply says that the tractor works to three hexes, then the tractor simply operates normally, but can reach out to three hexes instead of just one. That means there is no increased power cost.

[Kang]

Just coming back to the Move Costs for a minute, this has brought up an interesting point here - well at least I think it's interesting anyway - not strictly Move Costs, but....

Order of Precedence (2A5) says that Monsters move before Ships. For that reason, does the Planet Killer therefore always move before ships? Or does the rule refer to 'automatic' solitaire-mission monsters rather than player-controlled 'ship' monsters such as the PK or Juggernaut?

[Kang]

All rulebook 5th edition, and from head (NRBOH).

Is that 'No Rule Book On Hand'? I like....

[Blammo]

Order of Precedence (2A5) says that Monsters move before Ships. For that reason, does the Planet Killer therefore always move before ships? Or does the rule refer to 'automatic' solitaire-mission monsters rather than player-controlled 'ship' monsters such as the PK or Juggernaut?

I believe the intent of the rule is that monsters move first regardless of whether they are player controlled (multi-player game) or automatic (solo-play). Could be wrong, but that is the way I read it.

Cheers,
Blammo

[mjwest]

Forgot that followup.

Yes, monsters move first regardless of whether automatic or player controlled. Given that the rule was present in the very first edition of the game, and that the first monsters were all player controlled, I don't really see the ambiguity.

[Kang]

Thanks Mike. No ambiguity, just I'd never properly twigged it. I have now