Hi.
Gunboats (fast patrol ships) have been mentioned, at least in passing, a couple of times already; while it might be a while yet (if ever) before they go anywhere, I wanted to try and discuss the inclusion, or not, of these particular units.
For starters, would you want to see them in FC at all? If so, would you envision them as part of the vanilla ruleset, or kept over at the Borders of Madness?
*In terms of their rules and various features, what would you leave in (or out)? Would you want their move cost to remain at 1/5, or perhaps shifted to 1/4 (in Squadron Scale)? Would you leave the warp booster packs on or off? What about the various sub-types, such as leaders, scouts, and survey PFs, or maybe workboats?
*Further, in terms of deploying them, would you want to see them deployed alongside tenders and/or PF ground bases, or in some other manner?
*And would you want to see empires that only get conjectural PFs in SFB (such as the Federation and FRA) get their boats here, or would you stick to the empires that historically fielded PFs?
For my part, I'd at least like to see the leaders left in each flotilla, as well as the civilian workboat types offered to make convoy runs more interesting. I'd probably not rush to suggest keeping the battle scouts, but "casual" PFQs would be neat. I'd probably like to see at least one type of tender per empire offered, but some type of ground base might not be a bad option either.
I would, perhaps, be most interested in seeing what options were taken for Alpha boats, in order to then consider how Omega (and LMC) PFs might operate in FC.
Omega boats in particular would stand out, as they come in various hull and flotilla sizes, and would need some form of rule to cover their "volatile warp" engines; which work somewhat differently than the "hot warp" types seen on Alpha PFs.
The LMC is more straightforward; there, the Baduvai are the only ones to currently run PFs, which mainly differ from Alpha types through their lack of warp booster packs. (It's unclear whether or not they historically adopted WBPs after contact with the Alpha empires via Operation Unity.)
Any thoughts?
Gunboats
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Dal Downing
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Just my 2 cents worth...
1) Gunboats, Workboats, and Skiffs in Base FC. Allow upto/max of 6 to be taken and treated as a single unit for things that require anytype of a ship count mechanism. Only allow 1 Leader to be included per group of six or less.
2) All Tenders should be treat as BoM. Leave their Special Sensor and Repair rules strcitly as a BoM thing.
3) All other varients (Scouts, FiCon, Minelayer... etc) should be left to BoM Material.
4) Warp Booster Packs should really stay BoM as far as I am concerned. I know someone made a comment of you can just declare them on or off at the beginning of the turn and if you take damage to the Engines just double it when they are on. OTOH if we shift them to a 1/4 MC just leave the packs on and don't worry about Doubling the Damage on Engine Hits because they pay more to move.
5) Everyone should gets them after all everyone got Battleships...
6) Base Modules (be they PF or Fighter) we don't need them just add the Gunboats to the Bases Points Total and call it a day.
In the End SVC will decide when and how we get them. I am kinda hoping to See the Skiffs and Orion Workboats to show up in a Communique some time just treat them as really small ships.
1) Gunboats, Workboats, and Skiffs in Base FC. Allow upto/max of 6 to be taken and treated as a single unit for things that require anytype of a ship count mechanism. Only allow 1 Leader to be included per group of six or less.
2) All Tenders should be treat as BoM. Leave their Special Sensor and Repair rules strcitly as a BoM thing.
3) All other varients (Scouts, FiCon, Minelayer... etc) should be left to BoM Material.
4) Warp Booster Packs should really stay BoM as far as I am concerned. I know someone made a comment of you can just declare them on or off at the beginning of the turn and if you take damage to the Engines just double it when they are on. OTOH if we shift them to a 1/4 MC just leave the packs on and don't worry about Doubling the Damage on Engine Hits because they pay more to move.
5) Everyone should gets them after all everyone got Battleships...
6) Base Modules (be they PF or Fighter) we don't need them just add the Gunboats to the Bases Points Total and call it a day.
In the End SVC will decide when and how we get them. I am kinda hoping to See the Skiffs and Orion Workboats to show up in a Communique some time just treat them as really small ships.
Last edited by Dal Downing on Sun Feb 27, 2011 6:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
-Dal
"Which one of you is the Biggest, Baddest, Bootlicker of the bunch?"
"I am."
"ARCHERS!!! THAT ONE!!!!"
"Which one of you is the Biggest, Baddest, Bootlicker of the bunch?"
"I am."
"ARCHERS!!! THAT ONE!!!!"
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ericphillips
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A few other thoughts:
*If WBPs were to be left out, the affected boats would probably be due the 5-point price discount they get in SFB. Although, would Alpha boats with no packs still be viable if they had a MC of 1/4?
*Handling Omega volatile warp engines shouldn't be too hard.
When run in standard mode, they would work normally, with the exception that you double the damage of each warp engine hit you score on an Omega boat.
When you use the afterburners (which all Omega boats have; kind of like Orion engine doubling, or half-doubling in this case) you add an extra 50% to the warp engine output for that turn (rounding down per engine), but each hit on a given engine scored in that turn is tripled. Plus, while using the afterburners, you can't dock or land, and you'd be obliged to let the engines "cool-down" on the subsequent turn (by running them normally).
Omega boats tend to have bigger engines than Alpha or LMC PFs; a Trobrin boat has 10 warp (4 L, 2 C and 4 R) while an Iridani boat has 12 (4+4+4). The increased susceptibility to damage is the key balancing factor.
Oh, and I should mention that Omega boats can't use WBPs; the afterburner function is an integral aspect of the volatile warp engines themselves.
*I can't recall where I saw it, but I noted somewhere that various survey cruisers were being considered for inclusion in Briefing #3. My thought was that, perhaps with this ship type only, an empire could take a survey boat as a "casual" option.
*If WBPs were to be left out, the affected boats would probably be due the 5-point price discount they get in SFB. Although, would Alpha boats with no packs still be viable if they had a MC of 1/4?
*Handling Omega volatile warp engines shouldn't be too hard.
When run in standard mode, they would work normally, with the exception that you double the damage of each warp engine hit you score on an Omega boat.
When you use the afterburners (which all Omega boats have; kind of like Orion engine doubling, or half-doubling in this case) you add an extra 50% to the warp engine output for that turn (rounding down per engine), but each hit on a given engine scored in that turn is tripled. Plus, while using the afterburners, you can't dock or land, and you'd be obliged to let the engines "cool-down" on the subsequent turn (by running them normally).
Omega boats tend to have bigger engines than Alpha or LMC PFs; a Trobrin boat has 10 warp (4 L, 2 C and 4 R) while an Iridani boat has 12 (4+4+4). The increased susceptibility to damage is the key balancing factor.
Oh, and I should mention that Omega boats can't use WBPs; the afterburner function is an integral aspect of the volatile warp engines themselves.
*I can't recall where I saw it, but I noted somewhere that various survey cruisers were being considered for inclusion in Briefing #3. My thought was that, perhaps with this ship type only, an empire could take a survey boat as a "casual" option.
For Gunboats, I would suggest that they be pointed out and fielded in squadrons of 6, including a leader and a scout (using non-BOM scout rules).
The 6 ships could be on a single, large card, to be "bought" as a inseparable unit but played as 6 individual ships.
No warp booster packs.
Tenders, like carriers, would be for BOM.
Everyone gets them but the Federation - they get an equivalent flight of Third Way fighters without drones (for non-BOM) but with drones for BOM.
The 6 ships could be on a single, large card, to be "bought" as a inseparable unit but played as 6 individual ships.
No warp booster packs.
Tenders, like carriers, would be for BOM.
Everyone gets them but the Federation - they get an equivalent flight of Third Way fighters without drones (for non-BOM) but with drones for BOM.
[NON-official voice here ...]
If I had my druthers, I would do this:
- They are just "little ships" in FC. No special DAC or other rules. They are just really little ships with big hammers.
- 1/8 movement rate. I don't like 1/4 as that is what frigates use. These are supposed to be *way* smaller than frigates. Therefore, they need to have a lower movement rate.
- One size fits both scales. Since the movement rate is 1/8, fleet scale gets half as many, not half sized.
- Leader and Scout in BoM. Not needed in base FC.
- Tenders go in BoM. In FC, gunboats are just little ships. And, since there are no "fleet limits" in FC, that is how they are deployed: Just take what you can afford to spend.
- No interceptors. They don't exist in FC or BoM. (They are just an historical footnote that can easily be ignored.)
- I would like to use the FH/RH shields of interceptors for gunboats, though. That would be cool.
- For presentation, what would be cool is three (I don't think six will fit) on one side, and then three variants (alternate weapon, cargo/troop, and one other) on the flip side. In a full Attack module, that gives lots of flexibility. Boosters would contain a duplicate, then some other cool stuff.
Those are just my ideas. I have no idea what the end result will be.
If I had my druthers, I would do this:
- They are just "little ships" in FC. No special DAC or other rules. They are just really little ships with big hammers.
- 1/8 movement rate. I don't like 1/4 as that is what frigates use. These are supposed to be *way* smaller than frigates. Therefore, they need to have a lower movement rate.
- One size fits both scales. Since the movement rate is 1/8, fleet scale gets half as many, not half sized.
- Leader and Scout in BoM. Not needed in base FC.
- Tenders go in BoM. In FC, gunboats are just little ships. And, since there are no "fleet limits" in FC, that is how they are deployed: Just take what you can afford to spend.
- No interceptors. They don't exist in FC or BoM. (They are just an historical footnote that can easily be ignored.)
- I would like to use the FH/RH shields of interceptors for gunboats, though. That would be cool.
- For presentation, what would be cool is three (I don't think six will fit) on one side, and then three variants (alternate weapon, cargo/troop, and one other) on the flip side. In a full Attack module, that gives lots of flexibility. Boosters would contain a duplicate, then some other cool stuff.
Those are just my ideas. I have no idea what the end result will be.
Federation Commander Answer Guy
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Sneaky Scot
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No leaders or scouts - these should be BOM only. Same for Tenders. Casual PF should be allowed. Move cost 1/8 but the power should be reduced (no idea how much the reduction should be). Not too fussed one way or the other on Booster Packs.
Nothing is quite as persuasive as a disruptor pistol on slow burn and a rotisserie......
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Steve Cole
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In Gary's defense, I really didn't think this conversation would require your attention at all.Steve Cole wrote:I see Gary missed the memo about "not starting conversations that require SVC's attention before July 10th".
Quite frankly, gunboats are way down your priority list. You need to get Transports Attacked, Briefing #3, and Borders of Madness #1 and possibly Borders of Madness #2 out long before you are gonna worry about gunboats.
Really, this topic doesn't need your attention after July 10th, much less before, as this is all wishing and hoping. As long as it doesn't degenerate into flame war (a la initial fighter discussions), I really didn't see the harm. That said, I can always lock or delete the discussion and move on.
Federation Commander Answer Guy
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Steve Cole
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Years of history have show that topics like this have no good end. I ignore them at my peril, as otherwise a few people who are interested come up with their idea of how to do it, and sooner or later (without my noticing) lots of people assume that it is THE idea and a done deal, some being happy and others being upset. Then, when the real time comes for the real deal, I do the real rule and all hell breaks loose.
The Guy Who Designed Fed Commander
OK. Fair enough. Let's go ahead and drop this for now. (And by "now" I mean quite a while. As I mentioned above there are lots of things for just Federation Commander that need Steve's attention first.) I am sure Steve will let us know when discussions on gunboats will be useful.
I am locking this topic and will delete parallel efforts.
I am locking this topic and will delete parallel efforts.
Federation Commander Answer Guy