Fighters in Borders of Madness

Post by **Steve Cole** » Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:16 pm

Maybe we need to split this into two threads, one for "lots of drones" and one for the non-historical DF fighters.

mjwest · Post by **mjwest** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:56 pm

To touch on a couple questions that were asked ...

dharras wrote:Question for drone armed figters; normal ship drones must be launched from a unit within 25 hexes of the target (4F2a); they must also be within 25 hexes of the controlling unit at all times (4F2e). Fighter drones however must be launched within 8 hexes (5QM3b); should the control range of Fighter drones be specified as 8 hexes (going 24+1 ought to then evade a large number of them)?

Yes, I think this is completely reasonable. I agree with doing this entirely.

Another question: If a fighter fires a drone and lands back on a ship, what happens to the drone in flightn (currently unspecified) - is control dropped, or maintained even though its back onboard?

The drones are lost. The fighter must remain on the board to control the drones, and it may not transfer control.

Savedfromwhat · Post by **Savedfromwhat** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:31 pm

The zone of control of 8 hexes would greatly hinder their effectiveness as damagebut would still force people to stay out of overload range of your ships. That might be a very good limit for keeping drones off the table.

Savedfromwhat · Post by **Savedfromwhat** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:01 pm

Forgot but that raises the question what about plasma armed fighters? Plasma is self guided although it only lasts 4 impulses. What about impacted drones that move 9 hexes away?

mjwest · Post by **mjwest** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:16 pm

Savedfromwhat wrote:Forgot but that raises the question what about plasma armed fighters? Plasma is self guided although it only lasts 4 impulses. What about impacted drones that move 9 hexes away?

Plasma is, as you say, self-guiding. It is on its own once launched. Note the target must still be within 8 hexes for launch.

And you are right. I suppose it is the case that once launched, the fighter needs to be able to guide it past 8 hexes. Certainly, impacted drones need to remain past 8 hexes. Hmm. Guess that one needs more thought after all.

Kang · Post by **Kang** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:27 pm

Impacted drones and 9 hexes: fairly straightforward.

The ship the drones have impacted on must deal with the drones during the impulse of impact as usual - ADD/ESG, Phaser whatever, and, also as usual, either tractor any that the weapons have missed, or let them impact. Just like normal.

Then on any impulse after that where tractored drones are found to be outside their 8 hexes' guidance range, they simply lose tracking and are removed.

mjwest · Post by **mjwest** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:07 pm

I didn't mean to imply it was difficult to handle. I am just not sure that is the result I want to see. I am not sure I want to see an impacted drone to go "poof" if a ship gets to range nine from the controlling fighter.

Kang · Post by **Kang** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:16 pm

Ok, then, let's take an analogy. Ship A is tractoring an impacted drone launched from Ship B, and the two ships move more than 25 hexes apart.

The drone is now outside the ship's guidance range; does the drone then go 'poof'? (Rule (4F2e) "Weapons more than 25
hexes from the controlling ship also self-destruct").

Don't forget, the drones in each case (fighter-launched and ship-launched), while impacted in the sense of that they are off the board and on the ship card, are still 'in flight' because they have been tractored and have not yet detonated. They can have their tracking dropped voluntarily while in this position, why not involuntarily?

Nerroth · Post by **Nerroth** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:25 pm

Maybe give the drone fighter a twelve-hex zone of control, then?

That would still be less than half of that a ship has, but perhaps give the fighter that bit more of an option.

Kang · Post by **Kang** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:33 pm

I know that drone control limits (both in terms of total numbers and also ranges) are a play-balance feature (after all, who wants every drone from the enemy ship chasing them at the same time?

) but I still find it very difficult that in the 26th Century, starships are armed with AIM-7 Sparrows rather than AIM-120 AMRAAMs. Figuratively speaking, of course

Not that it affects this discussion, of course....

JonPerry · Post by **JonPerry** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:40 pm

With a turn break, fighter has two drones in the air after the target. Must stay within 8 hexes of the target.
This is already tough to do, as most ships can just outrun the fighter easier than they can outrun the drones.
If the ship is closing, though, you can have the situation where these two drones impact the ship early in the impulse, and the ship keep closing with the fighter, and then the ship just decides it is cheaper and easier to shoot the fighter. Kill the fighter and the drones drop tracking.

Yes, you can do this with a ship launched drones, but ships don't just blow up as easily.

Is this a desired effect?

edit - i forget (sitting at work) if Offensive ADDs can kill fighters (i know they can be fired at standard shuttles). If so, it would seem to further imperil the poor "standoff" fighter who needs to get (and stay) far closer than he would like to do his job. A single energy-free ADD at the fighter and those two drones it launched are not your problem anymore.

mjwest · Post by **mjwest** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:31 pm

Kang,

I think Jon expressed my concerns nicely. Sure, it is directly analogous to a ship's 25 hex range, but I don't know that this effect is what is desired.

So, I guess we will have to go with this for right now:
A fighter must be 8 hexes or less to launch drones or plasma torpedoes. Once launched, the larger 25 hex rule is use for maximum range. Plasmas are self-guiding. A fighter must continue to control its drones, and if destroyed, all drones still on the map (or impacted) self-destruct and are immediately removed.

Kang · Post by **Kang** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:57 pm

Nice ideas. This would also kind-of fit nicely with (i.e. it's analogous to) the rule (6A1e) about planets and line of sight not being blocked for drones already flying, but new ones cannot be launched without line-of-sight.

This way, drones already in flight have less restrictive conditions than the conditions required for lauch.

Dal Downing · Post by **Dal Downing** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:51 pm

Don't A10s and A20s get to launch from 12 hexes away. Why are drones which have a longer endurance getting cut to 8 hexes?

mjwest · Post by **mjwest** » Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:03 am

The provisional rules from CL37 (available as a free download from Commanders' Circle) stipulate that all of the weapons have a max range of eight. So, disruptors, photons, and drones may only be launched/fired at a maximum range of eight. (Which, actually, makes the Stingers have a *longer* range, as they can fire out to 10 hexes.)

Again, these are playtest rules. It is highly likely that things will need to be tweaked as we go along. If direct-fire drones get flushed, then it is likely that ranges can be extended a little. (But, hopefully not to 25 hexes for drones!)