3rd FCOL Tournament Draft Rules

ericphillips · Post by **ericphillips** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:52 pm

Has anyone objected to the axions or subs?

If this tourney is about playing what you want and having fun, this is not a cool restriction. The subs are official cards (albeit PDF). The axion is a difficult weapon (its like a weaker Photon that cannot be held). with cloak restriction in effect, subs that expire their cloak are glass ships, to say the least.

gar1138 · Post by **gar1138** » Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:03 am

I'm fine with the subs being in the tourney (the axion torpedos aren't all that fearsome on regular ships), but I think there needs to be some sort of limiting factor (something like only one sub, or some such?).

Taking an all-sub fleet would be unfair, in my opinion.

Oh, would the cloaking limit (48 impulses, aka 8 turns?!) apply to the subs as well?

Garrett

storeylf · Post by **storeylf** » Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:08 am

48 impulses was 6 turns last I checked

Will orions drop a handicap category? - they were not picked by anyone last time either.

ericphillips · Post by **ericphillips** » Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:31 am

gar1138 wrote:
Oh, would the cloaking limit (48 impulses, aka 8 turns?!) apply to the subs as well?

Garrett

It should. A cloak is a cloak is cloak.

An all sub would be odd, but fair, i think. It would just be a long game.

ericphillips · Post by **ericphillips** » Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:34 am

Oh, and when the cloak runs out for the subs, they are toast.

pinecone · Post by **pinecone** » Tue Jun 07, 2011 1:29 am

I would not be opposed to allowing subs... they are not BoM by any means. But if they are allowed, I think the Frax would have to be moved into the 1.05 Point category.

pinecone · Post by **pinecone** » Tue Jun 07, 2011 1:33 am

On an Un-related note, are the Vudar in the client yet? I've been expirementing with them and might like to try them out.

JimDauphinais · Post by **JimDauphinais** » Tue Jun 07, 2011 2:05 am

VulcanDropout has submitted them to Paul Franz.

We will need to test them once Paul adds them to the client to make sure they are working properly.

The ISC ships were also submitted.

The Andros are defnitely out this time around.

JimDauphinais · Post by **JimDauphinais** » Tue Jun 07, 2011 2:11 am

Will orions drop a handicap category? - they were not picked by anyone last time either.

Preliminarly, my thought is no; They will not unless the Feds also drop a level.

My problem with dropping the Orions a level, but not the Feds, is that the Orions in many ways are Feds on steroids. However, I could potentially be talked into dropping the Orions a level even if the Feds don't drop a level as my 25% subscription rule does provide a safeguard if a whole bunch of folks try to select them because they are perceived as being too cheap.

The Feds might be dropped a level, but it is a difficult call. Archer has most certainly has shown what can be done with them with superb play.

Preliminarily, I am not inclined to drop the Feds a level. However, let's see how the last two matches end. If the Feds do drop a level, the Orions will for certain drop a level as well.

gar1138 · Post by **gar1138** » Tue Jun 07, 2011 2:52 am

storeylf wrote:48 impulses was 6 turns last I checked

Oh, yeah. D-uh, I had an awesome math moment there. Move along, nothing to see here......

Garrett

gar1138 · Post by **gar1138** » Tue Jun 07, 2011 2:54 am

pinecone wrote:On an Un-related note, are the Vudar in the client yet? I've been expirementing with them and might like to try them out.

Even though some of the Vudar ships have been sent to Paul, I do not believe that either of the Vudar weapon systems have been implemented in the client yet. At least, the last time I checked, they had not.

Garrett

JimDauphinais · Post by **JimDauphinais** » Tue Jun 07, 2011 3:30 am

They will need to be working by the 24th to allow the Vudar in. The same applies to PPDs for the ISC to get in.

storeylf · Post by **storeylf** » Tue Jun 07, 2011 8:13 am

JimDauphinais wrote: Preliminarly, my thought is no; They will not unless the Feds also drop a level.

My problem with dropping the Orions a level, but not the Feds, is that the Orions in many ways are Feds on steroids. However, I could potentially be talked into dropping the Orions a level even if the Feds don't drop a level as my 25% subscription rule does provide a safeguard if a whole bunch of folks try to select them because they are perceived as being too cheap.

That argument does not match the reality of last tournament. If they were Feds on steroids then why did several players take Feds but no-one Orions? Probably because they are not Feds on steroids. They don't have the same selection of ships, they are not as robust, they do have good advantages but they are very different. Maybe no one thinks they are actually that good at 1.05, where as several players were still happy to take Feds at 1.05.

Surely the point of your handicap system is to see how each empire adjusts over time based on how it does, not some unrelated race.

You made a subjective call on the intial handicap (fair enough) but now let each empire float using identical 'rules' without regard to your own bias. Other wise we will see how you value the empires rather than based on other peoples perceptions, choices and actual performance.

JimDauphinais · Post by **JimDauphinais** » Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:50 pm

Ok, here my latest thoughts (which have been incorporated into my latest edit of the draft rules above):

- Kzintis fall a level to 1.05 (nobody selected them and they were available)

- Orions Pirates fall a level to 1.00 (nobody selected them and they were available)

- Wyn fall a level to 0.96 (nobody won a match with them)

- Hydrans go up a level to 1.00 (best performing empire)

There would no other changes to the printed point value multipliers.

mojo jojo · Post by **mojo jojo** » Fri Jun 10, 2011 7:12 am

The facts seem to support Orions as Feds on steroids. At least if you compare equivalent ships and use equivalent weapon mounts.

Orion BC (4 PHOT plus 2 PH1 in option mounts) vs Fed NCA 150 pts each

1) Orion has 2 extra PH-3 and fed has 2 drone racks with 2 drones each. Slight edge to Fed.

2) Orion has 36+4 power vs Fed's 38+4. Huge edge to Orion after factoring ability to double engines.

3) Orion has stealth coating. Huge edge, although it doesn't combine with engine doubling.

4) Both have roughly equal internal boxes. Tie

5) Orion has 2 better 1 shield and 6 better 2 and 6 shields. Moderate edge to Orion.

6) Orion has maneuverablity B vs D. Moderate to big edge to Orion.

7) Same frame but Orion has 8 more marines. Very slight edge Orion.

Conclusion. The Orion BC is simply a better ship than the Fed NCA.

The Fed NCL doesn't have an equivalent BPV, so let's compare Orion DBR(3 PHOT, PH-1, Drone) vs Fed DW. 100 pts to 98. (Orion BR vs Fed CL at 115 is simply monstrously unfair).

1) Orion has 4 drones in its rack vs 2 in Fed rack while the Fed has 4 ADD in its rack. Orion has 2 extra PH-3. Slight edge to Orion.

2) Orion has 19+4 power vs 23+2 power. Probably no worse than a tie after factoring engine doubling.

3) Orion has stealth coating. Big edge to Orion.

4) Fed DW has 1 extra box on 2-6 shields. Very slight edge to Fed.

5) Orion has about 6 more internal boxes than Fed. Moderate edge to Orion.

6) Orion has maneuverability A vs C. Moderate to big edge to Orion.

7) Orion has 1 extra frame and 4 extra marines. Slight edge to Orion.

8 Orion has 4 repair points vs 2 for Fed. Moderate edge to Orion.

Orion seems to have the better ship, but the edge doesn't seem as much as the BC vs NCA matchup because of significantly worse relative power.

Orion LR (2 PHOT, PH-G) vs Fed FF. 77 pts for Orion vs 78 for Fed.

1) Orion has 3 360 PH-1 and PH-G vs 3 PH-1, 2 PH-3, and weak drone rack. It's hard to compare, but I think the weapons are roughly equal.

2) Orion has 12+3 power and Fed has 16+2. I think it's about a wash if you factor in engine doubling.

3) Orion has stealth coating. Big edge to Orion.

4) Fed has about 10 more internal boxes than Orion. Big edge to Fed.

5) Orion has 2 more boxes on every shield. Slight edge to Orion.

6) Orion has maneuverability AA vs B. Moderate to big edge to Orion.

7) Orion has 4 repair points vs 2. Moderate edge to Orion.

This matchup is pretty close. I'll call it a wash.