Romulan Vulture/King Vulture point value too low?

[The_Rock]

As I said, it's likely to be a long boring game, but any shield damage it inflicts is likely to linger while PA damage can be dissipated over an open map.

that works for SFB. I am not sure it would work for Fed Com. Andros have an advantage in SFB because they regenerate quickly and the galactics are extremely limited. This advantage off-sets their relatively weaker firepower.

In fed com, however, damage control is infinite and SHield repair is limited only by power. I don't think Andros are significantly more able to clear their panels than galactics are to repair their shields. For them to do it, the Andro would have to be able to constantly pressure the Galactic so that it could not waste a turn repairing shields. I don't think it can really do that in Fed Com.

[mojo jojo]

that works for SFB. I am not sure it would work for Fed Com. Andros have an advantage in SFB because they regenerate quickly and the galactics are extremely limited. This advantage off-sets their relatively weaker firepower.

In fed com, however, damage control is infinite and SHield repair is limited only by power. I don't think Andros are significantly more able to clear their panels than galactics are to repair their shields. For them to do it, the Andro would have to be able to constantly pressure the Galactic so that it could not waste a turn repairing shields. I don't think it can really do that in Fed Com.

The devil of course is always in the details. But if the Galactic ships sit speed 0 and just repair, the Andros will clear their panels in a single turn and be able to pressure the Galactics again very quickly. If the Galactics keep the damaged ship back to repair and the other 2 to pursue, that is also dangerous since you have less firepower and the Int might be able to get another favorable exchange.

A lot also depends on what happens during the initial battle pass. A typical exchange might be the Andros losing 2 Cob and the Galactics having a ship crippled or near crippled. Or the Galactics could mostly fill the Int front panels in which case the Int just displaces and runs away. PPDs, HB, and Phot would force the Andros to keep their distance and might very well keep the initial damage low enough so the damaged ship can repair successfully.

[storeylf]

A lot also depends on what happens during the initial battle pass. A typical exchange might be the Andros losing 2 Cob and the Galactics having a ship crippled or near crippled. Or the Galactics could mostly fill the Int front panels in which case the Int just displaces and runs away. PPDs, HB, and Phot would force the Andros to keep their distance and might very well keep the initial damage low enough so the damaged ship can repair successfully.

Against the good tourney fleets the 2 INT + 2 Cobra won't be crippling ships (unless it is a frigate filler) without getting within range 5 or less, and they need to be at 3 or less to be killing a cruiser sized ship. That sees the enemy chuck out enough firepower to do more than just 'mostly' fill the front panel of the INT. Even disrupter races have enough firepower at range 5 to do noticeable internals to an INT, at range 4 it is looking pretty grim, and once the INT is in trouble the Andros are goners if they haven't almost won. If you preserve the INT but lose the cobras then you are probably already losing the game on points so running away forever is not much use to you.

There are disdev tricks that can help you, but the INT + 2 cobra lacks the DisDevs to reliably pull off the sort of tricks that allow the safer close attack run (and get away). The Conq +Conq + cobra is a better tourney force (IMHO), extra disdevs are very useful and the extra heavy beam and extra phasers are also useful. But Conq is easier to takeout than an INT so needs even more care.

But if the Galactic ships sit speed 0 and just repair, the Andros will clear their panels in a single turn and be able to pressure the Galactics again very quickly. If the Galactics keep the damaged ship back to repair and the other 2 to pursue, that is also dangerous since you have less firepower and the Int might be able to get another favorable exchange.

The moment you stop arming those TRs during EA due to energy concerns then I know you have at best 8 Ph2s for 2 turns minimum. What favourable exchange is the INT going to get? That INT isn't going to be running away to dissipate a bit of damage, it is either going into energy crisis as no one fired at it whilst the cobras were dealt with, or it is in trouble after being targeted by everything in a 450 pt fleet.

The sort of tactics you are talking about are best where the Andros have a lone mothership. The INT can come in against most 270pt fleets and hit hardish without getting hammered, pull out and refresh and come back again. You only have 1 ship being shot at so it probably never runs out of energy, and you are probably not facing enough firepower at the range you can hurt a galactic ship to trouble you greatly. Andros excel in those sort of engagements (on a large enough map), however, they really do not scale up very well in larger encounters where they have split into multi ships. Enemy fire power kills satellites outright or goes straight through the motherships panels, and the non targeted andros head towards energy crisis.

[mojo jojo]

Against the good tourney fleets the 2 INT + 2 Cobra won't be crippling ships (unless it is a frigate filler) without getting within range 5 or less, and they need to be at 3 or less to be killing a cruiser sized ship. That sees the enemy chuck out enough firepower to do more than just 'mostly' fill the front panel of the INT. Even disrupter races have enough firepower at range 5 to do noticeable internals to an INT, at range 4 it is looking pretty grim, and once the INT is in trouble the Andros are goners if they haven't almost won. If you preserve the INT but lose the cobras then you are probably already losing the game on points so running away forever is not much use to you.

The only way you're doing 'noticeable' (which I assume means more than burnthrough) internals to an Int at range 5 is if you're overloading. That means you're going speed 16 at most. If you do that, the Andro simply puts the Cob a few hexes ahead of the Int. If the Cobs are at range 3 and the Int is range 6 on the same shield (easily arrangeable since you have the maneuver precedence), each Cob will do 33 damage on average, or 66 (targetted on weapons of course) between the pair if centerlined or 26 and 52 if not centerlined. That plus the Int will easily cripple a cruiser sized ship. Or alternately, the Int can hold fire and see if the Galactic fires on the Cobs first. If they do, the Int has free reign to get to point blank range and do even more damage. If they don't, the Cobras get away for a 2nd turn and the Int has the option of running away or getting closer depending on how much damage was done.

The disrupter fleet can either blow up the Cobs or mostly fill the front panels of the Int. Even if they blow up the Cobs, I wouldn't care about being behind in points since this scenario assumes a very long boring engagement anyway, so presumably no time or turn limits. At 1 Int vs 2 good cruiser sized ships, the Int can easily use the tactics I've described previously with the bonus that the 2nd battle pass can be at closer range.

The moment you stop arming those TRs during EA due to energy concerns then I know you have at best 8 Ph2s for 2 turns minimum. What favourable exchange is the INT going to get? That INT isn't going to be running away to dissipate a bit of damage, it is either going into energy crisis as no one fired at it whilst the cobras were dealt with, or it is in trouble after being targeted by everything in a 450 pt fleet.

Considering that the Int has up to 40 battery power to start and that they would only be using the run away strategy if the panels have significant energy (which means free power to batteries each turn), it will be a number of turns before they have to stop powering TR beams. During that time, they can easily 'pressure' the Galactic power.

[storeylf]

The only way you're doing 'noticeable' (which I assume means more than burnthrough) internals to an Int at range 5 is if you're overloading. That means you're going speed 16 at most. If you do that, the Andro simply puts the Cob a few hexes ahead of the Int. If the Cobs are at range 3 and the Int is range 6 , ....

Most of the good tourney empires can counter or handle that.

Even if they blow up the Cobs, I wouldn't care about being behind in points since this scenario assumes a very long boring engagement anyway, so presumably no time or turn limits. At 1 Int vs 2 good cruiser sized ships, the Int can easily use the tactics I've described previously with the bonus that the 2nd battle pass can be at closer range.

The scenario we were talking about was the tourney, where there needs to be some turn/time limit. Removing time limits wasn't suggested, in fact quite the opposite, a time limit was noted as being needed. The larger map was simply proposed as a way of allowing more than the 1 turn you currently get before being caught at overload range, to help those empires who do better by avoiding that range against crunch empires for a bit. It wasn't also proposing dropping the time limit.

Considering that the Int has up to 40 battery power to start and that they would only be using the run away strategy if the panels have significant energy (which means free power to batteries each turn), it will be a number of turns before they have to stop powering TR beams. During that time, they can easily 'pressure' the Galactic power.

Don't be deluded by the apparent ocean of power to start with, it doesn't last long when not being shot at unless you drop to speed 16. Against the current crunch fleets that dominate the tourney, and can readily whack an INT at close range, you will probably be doing 24+ for significant amounts of time which with your phaser fire can eat 20 battery power just in one turn, decels (for tweaking initial attack range), EM or HETs etc will further eat into that. You can well be looking at energy problems as you want to start a second attack run.

[mojo jojo]

Most of the good tourney empires can counter or handle that.

The PPD, HB, and Phot empires can handle that attack approach as I noted in a previous post. The disrupter ones can't. And using Patrick's list earlier in the thread, 3 out of 4 of the good competitive empires for tourney play are Kzinti, Lyran, and Tholian, all disrupter empires.

The scenario we were talking about was the tourney, where there needs to be some turn/time limit. Removing time limits wasn't suggested, in fact quite the opposite, a time limit was noted as being needed. The larger map was simply proposed as a way of allowing more than the 1 turn you currently get before being caught at overload range, to help those empires who do better by avoiding that range against crunch empires for a bit. It wasn't also proposing dropping the time limit.

My mistake. I was assuming both were being dropped since reference was made to Klingons sniping away on an open map at Feds which would simply result in shield damage and maybe a few burnthrough in a 3-4 hour time limit and would need a lot more time than the current Origins limit to be decisive.

In fact, my first posting on this tangent was It would be a long boring game that will never finish in any reasonable time limit and you didn't state time limits in your initial reply to that message.

Don't be deluded by the apparent ocean of power to start with, it doesn't last long when not being shot at unless you drop to speed 16. Against the current crunch fleets that dominate the tourney, and can readily whack an INT at close range, you will probably be doing 24+ for significant amounts of time which with your phaser fire can eat 20 battery power just in one turn, decels (for tweaking initial attack range), EM or HETs etc will further eat into that. You can well be looking at energy problems as you want to start a second attack run.

There are 2 possibilities after the first attack pass:

1) He blew up the Cobs. In this case, the Int doesn't need to run away as quickly. The Int has no panel damage in this scenario so has a lot more freedom to act.

2) He mostly filled the front panels of the Int. In this case, his energy crunch is much lessened since he's refilling the batteries by at least 7 for the turn, or maybe more if he can arrange a panel dump. The Cobs are stlll around and must be dealt with.

In either case if energy becomes too low, he can go speed 16 and use the DD to effectively go speed 28 or 40 and keep away from the opponent. That should save enough energy until the TRs reload for another battle pass.

[terryoc]

Don't forget the Intruder's displacement devices. Being displaced can throw a wrench into the best-laid plans.