Speed Limits and the Feel of the Scenario

[gar1138]

Finally, to "match" SFB speed limits, you would need to do something non-linear. So, Stopped can only to to baseline speed 0, baseline speed 0 can only go up to baseline speed 8, no limits on 8, 16, or 24. Doing the "only up to next baseline speed" is way more restrictive than SFB.

I like this, almost better than restricting it to every Baseline Speed step. Seems even easier, plus probably wouldn't even come into play on most simple battles.

playing devil's advocate here...

If you assume that only baseline[\i] speed is affected by the acceleration limit, it becomes much less restrictive. Baseline zero becomes baseline 8, but acceleration is available so you can go 8+1 every turn if you want to....

Exactly, having a Baseline Speed limit would only affect the baseline speed you can choose at the start of each turn. It would have no effect on acceleration or deceleration during a turn (hence the need to call it something other than *acceleration limits* to avoid confusion).

Baseline Stopped on previous turn
Baseline 8 this turn - up to 16 hexes
Baseline 16 next turn - up to 24 hexes
Baseline 24 - up to 32 hexes

Actually, I think it would be:

Baseline Stopped on previous turn
Baseline 0 this turn - up to 8 hexes
Baseline 8 next turn - up to 16 hexes
Any Baseline following turn - up to 32 hexes

Garrett

[ericphillips]

playing devil's advocate here...

If you assume that only baseline[\i] speed is affected by the acceleration limit, it becomes much less restrictive. Baseline zero becomes baseline 8, but acceleration is available so you can go 8+1 every turn if you want to. So it would be something like

Baseline Stopped on previous turn
Baseline 8 this turn - up to 16 hexes
Baseline 16 next turn - up to 24 hexes
Baseline 24 - up to 32 hexes

Which mimics the SFB limits:
0
10
20
32

This has been my suggestion all along

[ericphillips]

FC is like SFB but easier to play though, what some see as extra 'feel' others see as unnecessary detail.

For example mass deployment of shuttles would be the SFB feel, but do we want that?

I agree. Personally, why did they copy the SFB rules for weapons so much. It is complicated and is way too much detail. There should only be 1 weapon in FC... a PH-1. And arcs are way too much to deal with, I spend way to much time deciding is something is in arc. Everything should be 360-degree.

Too much detail. IMHO.

[The_Rock]

It mainly comes down to photons. It really doesn't matter for anything else. But the speed 0 going to speed 24 is what makes the most powerful heavy weapon in Fed Com that much worse.

Feds are not the most powerful empire in Fed Com, but they are the best of the non-"broken" empires.

Taking away the positron flywheel from everyone would help with game balance.

It is very odd to me that Steve posted this on the Discuss BBS:

"By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, April 23, 2010 - 11:14 am: Edit
Rules I regret publishing: Positron flywheel, scrambler, megafighter, Vudar, XP refits."

and yet is adamant that Fed Com works best when everyone has the positron flywheel (well, actually, something better than the flywheel).

Fixing this problem would be easy, as people have noted above. The one step rule (but considering "0" and "stopped" as the same step) would fix this mistake in Fed Com.

[Kang]

But it ain't broke. Therefore we don't need to fix it!

[storeylf]

FC is like SFB but easier to play though, what some see as extra 'feel' others see as unnecessary detail.

For example mass deployment of shuttles would be the SFB feel, but do we want that?

I agree. Personally, why did they copy the SFB rules for weapons so much. It is complicated and is way too much detail. There should only be 1 weapon in FC... a PH-1. And arcs are way too much to deal with, I spend way to much time deciding is something is in arc. Everything should be 360-degree.

Too much detail. IMHO.

Precisely.

At one end there is the uber simple approach (get rid of arcs).

At the other end the there is the uber detail approach (wherea are my extra ph3s on the shuttles that I always deloyed, what about wild weasals, and boarding via shuttles, FC just doesn't feel like SFB now shuttles are nerfed etc).

I doubt many people want either extreme, but at the same time everyone will have their own thoughts on where the game goes from nice simple streamlined game 'feeling' like SFB to a game full of unneeded detail and 'being' SFB. For some speed changes may be the way to go and a great addition, for others it is just more unecessary rules that when added to all the other stuff that people are wanting (or keep getting added) is turning FC into an SFB type of game salami slice by salami slice.

Not unlike the way SFB itself went really, slice by slice it went from a moderatley complex game to a monster game, driven by player request to some extent, that fewer and fewer people were interested in.

[storeylf]

It mainly comes down to photons. It really doesn't matter for anything else. But the speed 0 going to speed 24 is what makes the most powerful heavy weapon in Fed Com that much worse.

Most photon problems that I can think of largely come down to a particular style of play - tourney or tourney like games. i.e. playing with the 'best' ships on a small map where you don't actually have to think about whether you can catch the other guy 'cos he has no where to run anyway.

Larger maps, older ships, possibly scenario objectives make the slow-overload dump, then charge the following turn a less clearcut strategy.

At one point I never understood why some people were so adamant that Feds should always overload photons, I often found holding overloads to be madness. Eventually, I played a lot of games on smallish fixed maps with Feds, now I can see that those people were probably only ever playing on such a map. Again, unless people explain the particular context of what they are saying it can be hard to grasp the argument, there are too many ways of playing FC for many generic statements to hold true.

You are right that speed change rules might help, but as I said earlier in thread, if the scenario is broken then fix the scenario seems a good idea.

Equally ship maintenance costs woud probably hurt feds as well (more power drain), and provide SFB feel. Not that I want that either.

ECM/ECCM rules would also probably force the Feds to expend power to stop the +1 to hit, again hurting them. Not that I want that either.

[Bolo_MK_XL]

Want simple --

Do away with holding Overloads -- for any weapon --

[Kang]

You could do that as a house rule if you so wish....

[mojo_billbo]

I, being the worst "offender" of the moving baseline 8 first turn while overloading photons and moving baseline 24 the second turn think that no acceleration limits are great! Don't change the game!

However, on a per scenario basis, if there is some "unusual" local space situations, I can see on a per scenario basis of having an acceleration limit.

Don't change the game, unless you're going to give me larger photon firing arcs since I'm moving so slow...

[ericphillips]

While I agree that SFB had creep over time, if you go back to early versions of the game before a lot was added on, acceleration limits were an integral part of the base game, long before PFs, weird drones, or fighters were in the game (although they did call armed shuttles fighters, but these were limited to speed 6 with one ph-3).

[Kang]

Iirc, in the Designer's Edition (the one I started with) the original Kzinti Attack Shuttles were Spd 8 with an FA P-3 and two drones. Which were also speed-8, incidentally.....

These were the original fighters, not the standard admin shuttles, which indeed had a P-3 - 360 but were never intended to be fighters.

Fwiw, I personally prefer the lowered priority given to admin shuttles in FC. I like the lack of these artificial 'fighters' with their extra phasers that just add to the map clutter.

[Nerroth]

One thing to bear in mind is that in SFB, you can still set campaigns in Y150 (or Y110, or Y65, or out in the old galaxy, or over in the LMC prior to Y175, or...) and not have to worry about non-Hydran fighters at all.

Perhaps part of the issue might be the overwhelming impetus towards General War-era combat, where carriers, gunboats and no end of seekers have made their mark; if there was a healthier balance of eras or settings being played (and being talked about on the boards) it might make it easier to not feel obligated to deal with them as often.

[Klingon of Gor]

My take on speed limits is fairly simpe. I liked SFB when it first came out, but quickly lost interest as the rules multiplied exponentially. I don't want Fedcom to become more like SFB, because frankly, I refuse to play SFB.

The acceleration limit strikes me as a rule that increases complexity for no real improvement to the game. Granted, it helps the Feds to be able to plot speed 8 one turn 1 while they overload the photons, and speed 24 the next turn. And admittedly, I used that in last night's game to defeat a Lyran squadron. But. Whether I had plotted speed 8, speed 16, or speed 24 on turn 2, I was still going to be at range 8 at some point, and those photons were were going to be fired at that Lyran heavy dread, regardless. After that, it's the luck of the dice whether the photons hit or not. I rolled 8 hits out of 12. So the Forest Lion took 116 internals. That's a pretty serious mauling, regardless of what speed the Feds are going. At that, the heavy dread was still in the game. (That's why they call it a HEAVY dread.) And I think that even then, the Lyran player still had a chance to pull it out.

I think the real issue in a lot of cases comes down to whether or not you're playing on an open or closed board. Some things (Fusion fleets, photon torpedoes, heavy plasma) just work differently on a closed board. Basically, heavy crunch rules on a closed board, and it will likely take heavy crunch to beat it.

An opponent of mine is fond of pointing out that basically, Feds are a luck race. A lot of what happens will come down to what happens with that first photon torpedo volley. If most of the photons find their mark, if the Feds roll hot dice, that may be the game right there. The target will either limp home to a body and fender shop or become an expanding cloud of debris. If most of the photons miss, if the dice are unkind, that may be the game right there. Because no way are you going to have those torpedoes live next turn, and the enemy will be free to climb all over you.

On balance, I don't think accelration limits would change any of the above, they would just add another layer of complexity.

[ericphillips]

It would do a lot, actually:

1. Improve plasma by having ships that are going slower not being able to max out their speed from say 8 to 24 over the turn break. A ship at baseline-8 could go no faster than baseline-16 (remember, they could still pay for acceleration). This also help because opponents to plasma Empires might choose 24 for baseline more than 16 to escape the plasma, which means less offensive power. Same for drone races to an extent.

2. Make certain races not take a baseline-0 on turn 1 in order to overload and then speed up to 16 or 24 the next turn, meaning they are trading speed for offensive power.

3. Stop the use of emergency decel to stay out of crunch range. As it is I have had enemies who had fired out all weapons emergency decel on impulse 7 or 8 to stay out of crunch range of my weapons, then go to speed 24 the next turn with weapons all fresh and ready.

4. Make scenarios dealing with running away after being stopped have more strategy- in other words, the way they played in SFB.

So, there you go, four tangible real improvements to the game, IMHO.

BTW: If you liked SFB when it first came out, speed limits were a part of it so it must have not been what turned you away. This is one rule that can be summed up into a sentence or two:

SPEED LIMITS: A unit is limited to taking a baseline speed no more than one higher the previous turn. Stopped and speed 0 can both choose baseline-8. Units can still accelerate on each impulse. A unit can still choose any lower speed without limit, even going from baseline-24 to 0.