Draft Tournament Auction-Based Squadron Selection Method

[JimDauphinais]

OK - I think an example would be useful here to clarify whether I am understanding this, as I am struggling a bit. This is how I am reading it.

There are 6 players. You put out the Romulan squadron of Vult, KE, KE at 450 points.

Going through bid order each player says whether they want that (point c). Lets say player 2 takes it.

As that is the base squadron there is no further bidding (point d). No matter how much player 3 wanted that Rom squadron, or just Roms he cannot bid for it.

Correct.

You randomly select Feds as the next empire. Player 3 now gets to start the bidding for that (point e). If he wishes to bid Fed he must post a Fed squadron that costs no more than 540 points (120% of the only other existing squadron so far) (point e).

Correct.

If no one bids before player 1 comes back round, then player 1 as the last player without a squadron in bid order (because we started at player 3), must take the empire. If he doesn't bid upto 540 points then he will be mandated to take it at 450 points, the highest squadron value so far (point e).

No. Pursuant to Step e, Player 1 would get assigned a squadron bid picked out by the Judge that is the highest valid squadron bid that is allowed at that time (up to 540 points in your example). Then this assigned squadron bid would be subject to Step f.

Lets say player 4 had bid for the Feds, and gone for 538 points, Plasma DN + 2 Strike cruisers.

Carrying down the bid order, player 5 may attempt to out bid him. Outbid meaning he puts together another squadron that costs less points (point f). He can't actually bid for the same squadron, bidding here means that you will take that empire with a weaker squadron (points wise).

Correct.

Assume no one outbids that initial bid, or just isn't interested in Feds.

Round 3 sees the same happen, say for the Klinks. The initial bid may be up to 645 points (120% of the Fed squadron). Player 5 as the next player after the player who got the Feds is the first bidder. Lets say he bids that amount (ships not relevant at the moment).

Again we go round starting with player 6 to outbid on the Klinks. Each bid is a new squadron costng less than the previous bid.

Correct.

Player 4 wins the Klink bid with a bid of some 550 point squadron. As he already had the Feds, that squadron is back up for assignment/bidding starting with player 5.

Almost. Pursuant to Step g, this previously awarded Fed squadron is offered "as is" to each player in Bid Order who does not yet have an awarded squadron. If no eligible player selects it, the Fed squadron is discarded since this previously awarded squadron is not the Base Squadron in this example.

Player 5 can take the squadron as is

Correct.

, and then those after him can outbid him again.

No. In Step g, it is a previously awarded squadron, rather than a squadron bid, that is being offered. It is not subsequently subject to Step f. However, squadron bids, regardless of whether they were submited by a player or awarded to a player (both under Step e), are subject to being outbid per Step f.

If no one wants the Fed squadron it is discarded, and the Feds are not in (unless you, as judge, choose them again in another round).

Correct.

If the above happens, but the person winning has the initial Romulan squdron then that squadron must remain in the game. If no one bids for it then player 1 will be stuck with it, as he would have been the last player to say no in this example (player 2 had the Roms, so bidding starts with player 3 and comes round the player 1 last).

Almost. It is if no one ACCEPTS the initial Romulan Squadron (which is the Base Squadron in this example), Player 1 must take it. Again, it is not a Squadron Bid. It is an awarded Squadron that is beinf awarded pursuant to Step g.

OK that is a bit long winded, but I could do with the example.

Good approach.

Is it correct?

See above.

Is the main gist of the process that you are not bidding for some handicap (e.g. you think Gorns cost to much, so want to take 3 BCs for 450 points, rather than 480), but rather you are bidding for a specific squadron of that empire you are prepared to play given what is already in. You can still take the 3 Gorn cruisers if the highest current bid means 480 points is within 120%. But until the final round of bidding you have no idea whether 480 points of Gorn cruisers are facing squadrons around 450 points or 600 points. The only opponent you can be sure of is the 450 point Rom squadron.

Correct, but you have an opportunity to continue to bid throughutn the process to help keep things from going astray.

[JimDauphinais]

With regard to all the starting range comments, the bottom line is that the starting conditions for the scenario is a side issue that is independent of the main issue in this topic, which is the squadron selection procedure that is being proposed.

[JimDauphinais]

The minimum point advantage over an opponent that needs to be achieved to score a win in a match will be equal to 25% of the point value of the lowest point value ship (not Fighter) involved in that match.

So if a fed player has a fleet with police cutter at 50 points the feds opponents only need to beat him by 10 points to win.

No, 12.5 points and it applies to both sides.

e. The empire will be offered to the next player in Bid Order after the player that has just been awarded a squadron. If that player wishes to bid on that empire, that player must within 24 hours bid (via a post on the FC Forum in this topic) a valid squadron for that empire with a total point cost no greater than 120% of the highest total point value squadron that has been awarded to a player so far. If a bid is not posted within 24 hours, the player will be obligated to pass. When a player passes, the empire will be offered to the next player in Bid Order who has not yet been awarded a squadron. If all players pass, the last player to pass who has not yet been awarded a squadron will be assigned a squadron bid for the empire by the Judge. The squadron bid picked out by the Judge will be the highest point value valid squadron bid allowed for that empire.

This means that if all pass the poster gets that squadron correct?

Correct. That player's squadron bid wins and the player is awarded the squadron.

The 120 percent inflation means the 4 or 5 selectee could have a fleet twice as big as the first fleet. And the 8 or ninth players fleet could be 4 times the size.

Only if EVERYONE bids irrationally in Step f. Rational bidding even by one player under Step f will prevent this from happening. The competitive pressure in the bidding will be to drive the awarded squadrons down toward squadrons that are competitive with the Base Squadron for the given conditions in the specified tournament scenario that is going to be used. The likely source of irrationale bidding will be folks who have their hearts set on playing a particular empire. They can still do that at a cost to themselves in squadron strength, but it won't throw the whole tournament out of balance as long as at least one player bids rationally in Step f throughout squadron selection.

There should be a hard cap on points.

I do not believe it is needed for the reasons stated above.

f. A player that has already been awarded a squadron (including the Base Squadron) may bid. However, if this player wins the bidding, the player will have to forfeit its previously awarded squadron. Bidding continues until all but one player has passed.

Seems to me that bidding could go on infinely in theory. A fed squadron is accepted but then the player takes the klingons with the feds disguarded then disguards the klinks when the feds com up again, and repeat.

The Base Squadron sets a floor. At some point folks are not going to be willing to give up the Base Squadron in order to bid for a dfferent squadron and that will cause a convergence on a solution.

[JimDauphinais]

I wondered about the possibility of 120pt per round inflation too--but the 'discard your earlier choice and jump back in the bidding' does address it. If your first round 450 pt fleet ends up outgunned you can ditch it. Mind you, that could stretch out the bidding into a pretty long process. But it would be 'organic'--meaning chosen by the 'free market' of player bids. I do have a possible alternative in mind...whenever the discussion is opened up. It will be obvious to anyone who has ever played Amun Re or Homesteaders.

Yep. I had ran to the store on an errand after the initial posting. While there, I realized I had left a loophole for abuse -- the same one you identified while I was away.

I'm optimistic about getting acquainted with the online system in time to sign up for this next event, so hopefully I'm a 'concerned party' in this discussion and not just 'crashing the party'

I hope you can join us. There are a couple of other new folks out there as well that might join as well. Play won't start prior until at least April 1st and that may actually be the starting date for the squadron selection process rather than actual online play.

[JimDauphinais]

As a final comment for me for the day, I am all for a mock run through of the process if some folks are interested in giving that a try. We would do it in a separate topic when we are ready to do so.

[ncrcalamine]

I will help in mock test draft if you wish

Nicole

[ncrcalamine]

In the new bidding system will the old ship restrictions apply.
Ie no battleships, 1 war cruiser leader,, dn, or bch
Only 2 ships of a single type.

Nicole

[storeylf]

Only if EVERYONE bids irrationally in Step f.

That is sort of my biggest issue in concept (the time it may take is a practical issue as well).

There are 3 reasons why people may not bid rationally.

1) They want to play a particular empire.
2) They really do want to play a particular empire. Note this is not the same a 1 above.
3) They know nothing about the empires. e.g. New players.

I know myself personally will always fall into point 2 and probably point 1, I am not really into tourney play just for the sake of tourney play. E.G. The tourney before last I wasn't going to play, but then at the last moment thought the all drone fleet looked amusing. Had I not got that fleet my motivation to play would have gone, and it is lilely that given the issues of arranging games due to time zone differences on top of that I would have dropped out.

Also is this possible in your system:- I'm the last player to need an empire and I want EmpireX (so I'm not totally rational). I get the first bid and say 120%, everyone else is a 'rational' bidder. There is some bidding to stop my 120%, so I say fine, They get the empire at 100%, and his previous empire is up for reassignment which I pass on. You allocate another empire. I bid 120% and we go round again, I pass on any squadron reassigned and wait for the next empire and bid again. I will do this until EmpireX comes up, again someone will stop me getting at 120% we go round again - wait until EmpireX comes up again. Eventually I either get the empire I want at 120%, or others will have been forced to take empireX (to stop me getting it) and I am forced to take the Romulan squadron (At which point I drop out the tourney, and all the remaining fleets are EmpireX).

OK that is the extreme, but if we have 'rational' players mixed in with those who want a particular empire, or worse (for the bidding) a particular squadron of an empire, then you may well find that will force a preponderance of that empire as the 'rational' players keep having to outbid the person who really wants that empire, and will otherwise get it at 120%.


I think the idea of what you are doing sort of sounds OK, barring some bits that need ironing out, IF you are wanting only serious tourney players who don't care who they play - i.e. your 'rational' players. More casual players, or new players may well be put off by a feeling that balance requires they bid for stuff they don't want to play (or know enough of to feel comfortable playing).

New players in particular may feel put off by the fact they are not even in a position take part in the bidding just because they don't have Distant kingdoms (or some other pack), or know every ship that might let them come up with all the possile squadrons they can bid with.

Dropouts can be an issue as is, anything that might increase the dropout rate is probably not good.

You might need to consider people dropping out during the bidding process as well, especially if it is the base Romulan squadron (do you then reassign it, what if everyone left already has an empire).


Then there is the issue of known player skill. In a bidding process I know that someone like Paul Scott is better than me, so if I see he has a 450 point squad I will want to take something more like 500 (rationally). On the other hand he may not want to let me take something better than him (rationally), so the bidding process starts to fall down - I bid 110% his squad, but he bids that down and I pass, he wins, I bid 110% his new squad he bids it down, he wins etc.

I expect your idea of rational bidding only works if we are all the same skill level.

[storeylf]

PS - I'll take part in a mock up. As the player who really wants to play some empire, or not play some empires, which is most likely how I'd likely take part in reality.

[JimDauphinais]

In the new bidding system will the old ship restrictions apply.
Ie no battleships, 1 war cruiser leader,, dn, or bch
Only 2 ships of a single type.

Nicole

Yes, in the context I have presented the squadron selection method above. This could vary from tournament to tournament without changing the squadron selection method.

[JimDauphinais]

I'll respond to Lee's new comments this evening (my time) when I have time to do so.

Any other volunteers for a mock run through of the method?

We have three including myself, it would be great to have at least four participants for a mock test.

Also, in case it is not clear, in Step f, even players who passed in Step e get a chance to outbid the standing squadron bid in play. However, once a player passes in Step f, that player may no longer contest the standing squadron bid.

[pinbot]

I'd be in for a mock draft.

The alternative structure I have in mind is...well just that, an alternative. It would make for swifter resolution and avoid inflation (all empires would start at 450 and only bid down) but at an arguably large cost--the admin would have to set the complete lineup of empires at the beginning of bidding.

I'd kind of like to explain this alternative before the mock draft just so that people have a clear idea of what the contrasts would be. I don't think that it will cause confusion--another way of contrasting them is that my idea is much simpler, at the price of having fewer options and probably less room for exciting developments.

I make no claims of any great competence at FC (sad considering that I bought Klingon Border when it first came out) but I do play a ton of boardgames, so I reckon I'm certified on bidding structures. Nonetheless, I'm definitely newb-ish around here, so Jim I will certainly drop the subject you want. Hell, even if I were an FC pro, it's your show.

[JimDauphinais]

The alternative structure I have in mind is...well just that, an alternative. It would make for swifter resolution and avoid inflation (all empires would start at 450 and only bid down) but at an arguably large cost--the admin would have to set the complete lineup of empires at the beginning of bidding.

I'd kind of like to explain this alternative before the mock draft just so that people have a clear idea of what the contrasts would be. I don't think that it will cause confusion--another way of contrasting them is that my idea is much simpler, at the price of having fewer options and probably less room for exciting developments.

I make no claims of any great competence at FC (sad considering that I bought Klingon Border when it first came out) but I do play a ton of boardgames, so I reckon I'm certified on bidding structures. Nonetheless, I'm definitely newb-ish around here, so Jim I will certainly drop the subject you want. Hell, even if I were an FC pro, it's your show.

Pinbot -- Please e-mail me more details on what you have in mind (see the e-mail button for me below). The alternative you have in mind may very well have a lot of merit, but I'd rather have it well developed before interjecting it into this topic.

At this point I will say that the purpose of the Base Squadron is to pre-establish the target for all bidders. Descending all the empires down from a opening squadron bid established by the Judge doesn't provide insight for bidders with regard to a target or floor. This might actually significantly slow down convergence on a solution. Knowing the exact makeup of one particular squadron that is guaranteed to be in the tournament helps focus the bidders. We could also use a point floor, but I do not think that will work as well as we know the point value system has some significant playbalance limitations when comparing a squadron of one empire versus a squadron of another empire. Furthermore, this difference is not static. It is a function of the tournament scenario characteristics (i.e., starting conditions, terrain, etc.).

This all said, I could just modify my proposal such that the highest squadron bid allowed is no more than 150% of the Base Squadron's point value. This would keep things from wandering too high before wandering back down toward the Base Squadron point value in the bidding. It would also be a nice simplification and allow the Judge to have the default squadron bids ready to go. Additionally, I could also simplify Step e by simply assigning the default squadron bid to the next player in bid order automatically. Even if that player doesn't want to play that empire, that player is very unlikely to be stuck with it at that high point value. Furthermore, in the unlikely event that player does get stuck with that empire at a high point value, that player can have its revenge in the tournament.

Thanks,

[JimDauphinais]

Only if EVERYONE bids irrationally in Step f.

That is sort of my biggest issue in concept (the time it may take is a practical issue as well).

There are 3 reasons why people may not bid rationally.

1) They want to play a particular empire.
2) They really do want to play a particular empire. Note this is not the same a 1 above.
3) They know nothing about the empires. e.g. New players.

I know myself personally will always fall into point 2 and probably point 1, I am not really into tourney play just for the sake of tourney play. E.G. The tourney before last I wasn't going to play, but then at the last moment thought the all drone fleet looked amusing. Had I not got that fleet my motivation to play would have gone, and it is lilely that given the issues of arranging games due to time zone differences on top of that I would have dropped out.

In all these cases the key is that it only directly affects that player. For a new player, it might be a bad experience, but I also think they will at least be aware of when their squadron bids are getting close to that of the Base Squadron. So, that should hopefully limit the level of adversity with the experience.

Also is this possible in your system:- I'm the last player to need an empire and I want EmpireX (so I'm not totally rational). I get the first bid and say 120%, everyone else is a 'rational' bidder. There is some bidding to stop my 120%, so I say fine, They get the empire at 100%, and his previous empire is up for reassignment which I pass on. You allocate another empire. I bid 120% and we go round again, I pass on any squadron reassigned and wait for the next empire and bid again. I will do this until EmpireX comes up, again someone will stop me getting at 120% we go round again - wait until EmpireX comes up again. Eventually I either get the empire I want at 120%, or others will have been forced to take empireX (to stop me getting it) and I am forced to take the Romulan squadron (At which point I drop out the tourney, and all the remaining fleets are EmpireX).

OK that is the extreme, but if we have 'rational' players mixed in with those who want a particular empire, or worse (for the bidding) a particular squadron of an empire, then you may well find that will force a preponderance of that empire as the 'rational' players keep having to outbid the person who really wants that empire, and will otherwise get it at 120%.

I think there is enough granularity in the bidding to help ensure this doesn't happen. However, if it did, then the player with the Base Squadron can end this nonsense very quickly since if that player wins the bidding it will force our irrational player to take the Base Squadron and there will be no more bidding for squadrons. Now if we also have an irrational holder of the Base Squadron, we might have a problem. However, after a couple of go arounds, I would hope that the player with the Base Squadron realizes it needs to act to end the nonsense.

I think the idea of what you are doing sort of sounds OK, barring some bits that need ironing out, IF you are wanting only serious tourney players who don't care who they play - i.e. your 'rational' players. More casual players, or new players may well be put off by a feeling that balance requires they bid for stuff they don't want to play (or know enough of to feel comfortable playing).

New players in particular may feel put off by the fact they are not even in a position take part in the bidding just because they don't have Distant kingdoms (or some other pack), or know every ship that might let them come up with all the possile squadrons they can bid with.

I think we always have the issue with new players to some degree unless we just stick with the ships and empires supported by the KB/RB version of the rulebook, no terrain, etc. This would also require static point totals and mulipliers or standard squadrons. To me this a trap to boredom.

One on ramp for them could be to let them pick a standard pre-set squadron and keep them out of the rest of the squadron selection process. However, I am not inclined to do that the first time we try this.

Dropouts can be an issue as is, anything that might increase the dropout rate is probably not good.

You might need to consider people dropping out during the bidding process as well, especially if it is the base Romulan squadron (do you then reassign it, what if everyone left already has an empire).

I am actually less concerned with dropouts before we start than once we get going with play. However, once all the squadrons are awarded, there will be no reassignments. So, it is possible for the Base Squadron to drop out. However, by that time the Base Squadron has completed serving its purpose as the bidding target.

Then there is the issue of known player skill. In a bidding process I know that someone like Paul Scott is better than me, so if I see he has a 450 point squad I will want to take something more like 500 (rationally). On the other hand he may not want to let me take something better than him (rationally), so the bidding process starts to fall down - I bid 110% his squad, but he bids that down and I pass, he wins, I bid 110% his new squad he bids it down, he wins etc.

I expect your idea of rational bidding only works if we are all the same skill level.

Sort of "everybody thinks I am better than them, so I will always win at a game of chicken and as a result become a self fullfiling prophecy". I consider this sort of a reverse variation of irrational bidding.

A player with a inferiority mindset is not going to beat the Ace in the tournament anyways. This player's best course is to outright ignore the Ace when framing bids and instead focus the bidding based on the rest of the field. The goal of a non-ace player should be to have fun and one way to do so is to aim to do better than the player's peers of the same skill level, not to try to beat the Ace. If the player actually plays the Ace, the player should look at it as an opportunity to pickup some tips. If the player has some talent and plays enough, the player will eventually become an ace themselves. However, very few of us are going to be the next Paul Scott anymore than the next James Pei of For the People fame.

Thanks,

[JimDauphinais]

Version 0.2 -- 02/25/2013

What follows would be used in the context of a new FCOL tournament that uses the same rules as those used for the Fall 2012 FCOL Tournament except as modified as outlined below.

For discussion purposes, the Base Squadron would be a Romulan Squadron of 450 points consisting of a Vulture and two King Eagles. The playtest cloaking rule changes would be in play.

Squadrons would contain no less than 3 ships and no more than 4 ships. All other "450 point" tournament squadron purchase restrictions apply (i.e., only one leader, no BBs, no Scouts, no more than two of the same ships, etc.).

The 84 by 60 hex map will be used again (i.e., the equivalent of a standard small hex location map in FC).

There will be terrain consisting of a single ringed planet in the middle of the map. The planet is a Gas Giant (6A4) that is 7 hexes in diameter. The ring surrounding the planet is one hex wide and 15 hexes in diameter. The ring is considered to be Dust (6B2a).

The first player (determined randomly) places his or her ships anywhere on the map in or adjacent to a hex exactly 25 hexes from the center of the planet and faced such that the planet (and its rings) are entirely placed in the ships RX fire arc. The second player places his or her ships anywhere on the map in or adjacent to a hex that is exactly 25 hexes from the starting hex of his or her opponent's ships and exactly 25 hexes from the center of the planet such that both his or her ships and his or her opponent's ships are in each others FA firing arc.

The minimum Baseline Speed for all ships on Turn 1 is 8.


This is the proposed squadron selection method:

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Squadron Selection Version 0.2

This tournament will use a declining cost auction-based method for squadron selection. It is intended to dynamically establish play balance between competing squadrons by rough consensus based on the established terrain, starting distance, size, length, etc. of the tournament scenario that is being used for all rounds in the tournament. When this method is in use, Section 8B2a of the Federation Commander Point Value Victory System (8B2) is not used (i.e., there is no adjustment for different total starting squadron point totals). The minimum point advantage over an opponent that needs to be achieved to score a win in a match will be equal to 25% of the point value of the lowest point value ship (not Fighter) involved in that match.

The following procedure will be used for squadron selection:

a. The Judge will select and post a squadron for an empire of the Judge's choice. This will be the Base Squadron for the tournament. The Judge will also post the minimum number of ships that can be in any awarded squadron and the maximum number of ships that can be in any awarded squadron. The size of the Base Squadron will fall within these limits. The Judge will post a list of eligible empires, a list of all ships available for purchase in the tournament, the point cost for those ships and any limitations on ship purchases. Finally, any terrain, starting positions, turn limits and all other scenario parameters will also be posted by the Judge.

b. By random selection, the Judge will place all the players into a Bid Order. If the Judge is playing in the tournament, the Judge shall always go last in the Bid Order.

c. In Bid Order, each player will be offered the Base Squadron. If a player does not post (on the FC Forum in this topic) an acceptance of the Base Squadron within 24 hours of it being offered to that player, that player will be obligated to pass on the Base Squadron. If all players pass on the Base Squadron, the last player in Bid Order must select it.

d. The next player in Bid Order who has not yet been awarded a squadron will be given the opportunity to select an eligible empire that has not yet been selected in the tournament. This will be the next empire offered for bidding. The player must post his or her selection within 24 hours of receiving the opportunity to select an empire for bidding. Otherwise, that player is obligated to pass to the next player in Bid Order. If all eligible empires have already been selected, the player may select an eligible empire that has not been selected any more times in the tournament than any other empire. Once a player has selected the next empire for bidding, the Judge will assign to that player a squadron bid for the empire. The squadron bid will be the highest valid squadron that has a total point cost equal to or less than 150% of the total point value of the Base Squadron.

e. Starting with the next player in Bid Order, each player may choose to outbid the latest standing squadron bid for the empire. If a player wishes to bid, the player must bid a valid squadron of that empire that has a lower total point cost than the current standing squadron bid. If a valid squadron bid is not posted by the player within 24 hours, the player will be obligated to pass. A player that has already been awarded a squadron (including the Base Squadron) may bid. However, if this player wins the bidding, the player will have to forfeit his or her previously awarded squadron. Bidding continues until all but one player has passed. Once a player has passed, that player may no longer bid for the empire being contested unless that empire comes up again in later bidding through Step d. Once bidding has ended, the player with the last standing squadron bid is awarded the squadron he or she bid.

f. If a player that has been previously awarded a squadron wins the bidding for an empire, this player's previously awarded squadron is forfeited and offered "as is" to the next player in Bid Order who has not yet been awarded a squadron. If this player does not post an acceptance of the previously awarded squadron within 24 hours of it being offered to the player, the player is obligated to pass. If all players who have not yet been awarded a squadron pass on the previously awarded squadron, the previously awarded squadron is discarded unless it is the Base Squadron. If it is the Base Squadron, the last player who passed on it must take it.

g. Steps d through f above are repeated until all of the players have been awarded a squadron.


If the last player without an awarded squadron fails under Step d to select an eligible empire for bidding within 24 hours of being offered that opportunity, that player will be withdrawn from the tournament.

If there are only two players left without an awarded squadron, and one of those two players fails twice consecutively under Step d to select an eligible empire for bidding, that player will be withdrawn from the tournament.

Regardless of the number of players left without an awarded squadron, if any player fails three times consecutively under Step d to select an eligible empire for bidding, that player will be withdrawn from the tournament.

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