Deploying DNs and BBs

mdauben · Post by **mdauben** » Thu Aug 20, 2015 2:40 pm

I've got a sort of background question regarding the deployment of Dreadnoughts and Battleships during the General War. Would a powerful squadron or fleet typically be build around a single DN or BB, or was it at all common for multiple big ships to operate together in one formation (this is aside from the capital ships that were conjectural or one-offs)?

I know its a game and the rules would allow me to field a dozen DNs in one game if I wanted, but I like to make my fleet lists "historical" when possible.

Thanks!

Post by **Steve Cole** » Thu Aug 20, 2015 2:58 pm

Historically, a single DN, rarely two. (BBs did not historically exist until the Klingons built two after the war.)

But Federation Commander ignores such silly rules as history and you can do what you like.

mdauben · Post by **mdauben** » Thu Aug 20, 2015 3:11 pm

Thanks, Steve!

djdood · Post by **djdood** » Thu Aug 20, 2015 3:22 pm

[cross-posted with the boss]

You're correct that Federation Commander lets you use any fleet mix you desire.

Star Fleet Battles has strict rules on force-makeup that align with what you are trying to do. ADB is nice enough to post the relevant rules section online:
http://www.starfleetgames.com/documents ... upload.pdf

There was also an article in an issue of Captain's Log that did a streamlined "FedCom style" version of those rules, but the gist is the same.

The basics of it are that typically there would only be one big size ship (DN, BB, "size class 2" in SFB parlance) in a fleet. That ship's "command rating" (another SFB data point) determines the number of ships it can effectively lead. Typically, it works out to about 8 ships in the fleet, with some exceptions for specialist types (only one "scout", etc.).

An example fleet mix would be something like 1 DN, 2-4 cruisers, and 2-3 destroyers/frigates. The "flag" ship's command ability to coordinate the efforts of its consorts determines the fleet size, not "point value" of the ships.

Really powerful fleets tended to get more "oomph" be adding larger varieties of cruisers (BCH, CB, CC, CA) and less of the smaller cruisers (CM, CL) and more of them and less of the tincan small ships.

A "real" fleet would still always have some of the smaller ships though (despite player's tendency to want to ignore them). Admirals get the ships that they get, not what they want. She might want 7 cruisers to sortie with her dreadnought flagship, but in reality she would probably have a mixture of sizes and capabilities.

mdauben · Post by **mdauben** » Thu Aug 20, 2015 3:34 pm

Thanks, Will!

That PDF looks like it will be a great help. I've never been much of a fan of "points match" games, generally when I do get a chance to play I end up with myself (or my opponent) setting up a scenario and the ship lists for both sides so knowing how the "in-game" doctrine for setting up fleets helps out with that.

Now that you mention it, I think there was a similar set of "fleet buiding guidlines" done for ACTASF, too.

djdood · Post by **djdood** » Thu Aug 20, 2015 3:36 pm

I'm fond of the traditional "fleet mix" too. All "munchkin" ship fights tend to be boring slugfest of attrition. Battles with a mixture have more action, with little ships going boom, ganging up on the other side's flagship, etc.

mdauben · Post by **mdauben** » Thu Aug 20, 2015 3:38 pm

djdood wrote:I'm fond of the traditional "fleet mix" too. All "munchkin" ship fights tend to be boring slugfest of attrition. Battles with a mixture have more action, with little ships going boom, ganging up on the other side's flagship, etc.

Yes, its that sort of "max out the best units!" type of play that's turned me off of a lot of other, popular tabletop wargames.

Scoutdad · Post by **Scoutdad** » Thu Aug 20, 2015 7:07 pm

But... if you get the Line of Battle expansion for Federation Commander, there are three scenarios in there featuring Battleships.
Each of which features a task force designed around a massive battleship... one which even pits a BB squadron against a BB squadron.

But as good a job as the FC guy did on Line of Battle, I have to agree with Will.
Very seldom do we use BB, and only rarely DNs in out battles. The smaller, less loved ships are often just more fun to fly. It makes you think about ways to overcome their limitations as opposed to being able to just barrel straight in and know you're gonna out gun the opposing ship.

mdauben · Post by **mdauben** » Thu Aug 20, 2015 7:34 pm

Scoutdad wrote:But... if you get the Line of Battle expansion for Federation Commander, there are three scenarios in there featuring Battleships.

Somehow, I missed that product in the FC section of the online store. I'll have to add it to my next order!

Very seldom do we use BB, and only rarely DNs in out battles. The smaller, less loved ships are often just more fun to fly. It makes you think about ways to overcome their limitations as opposed to being able to just barrel straight in and know you're gonna out gun the opposing ship.

Oh, I agree! BBs and even DNs should be fairly rare things in the course of any sort of "realistic" gaming. I just like to play around with lists and scenarios in my spare time and the question occured to me. Also, I was wondering if I "needed" to order another Fed BB or Kzinti DN miniature for my collection... just in case I ever required it!

Scoutdad · Post by **Scoutdad** » Fri Aug 21, 2015 5:33 pm

Yes, because you can never have to many miniatures.

You should have 2 of each battleship... just in case you decide to fight a civil war.

Sneaky Scot · Post by **Sneaky Scot** » Sat Aug 22, 2015 2:18 pm

Our usual tournament fayre at the RAF Wargaming Association was tournament cruisers, but we tended to have more fun with BPV forces featuring the limitation described above (1 "big" ship max) but we did have fun with about 300 points pick anything. Never forget the feeling of having my LDR CCX overrun the Gorn DNH that had just failed his HET roll. Wasn't pretty....

However, I think the one we enjoyed most was when we did a Frigate Leader tourney. About 90 points, nothing bigger than SC4 (move cost 0.50 in Fed Cdr terms). Stuff blew up on a regular and spectacular basis. Great fun.

mdauben · Post by **mdauben** » Mon Aug 24, 2015 1:43 pm

Scoutdad wrote:Yes, because you can never have to many miniatures.

Yes, but I don't have a whole garage to store them in like some people!

Scoutdad wrote:You should have 2 of each battleship... just in case you decide to fight a civil war.

Or maybe an incursion from the mirror universe?

Sneaky Scot wrote:However, I think the one we enjoyed most was when we did a Frigate Leader tourney. About 90 points, nothing bigger than SC4 (move cost 0.50 in Fed Cdr terms). Stuff blew up on a regular and spectacular basis. Great fun.

There is something to be said for the fun of flying around in a tiny ship.

Paul B · Post by **Paul B** » Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:00 pm

I think there may also be a precedent for Feds flying cruiser squadrons without escorts as we saw that formation during the M9 Computer war games when the Enterprise fought 4 other CAs.

Though they probably don't really have enough DNs to put them together.

Incidentally you may want to pick up the Master Ship book depending on who you're flying. If you want things very historical you can draw names from the books for your scenarios. Right now there's only books for the Feds and Hydrans with Klingons apparently next on the way.

http://store.starfleetstore.com/merchan ... Code=03-09

Post by **Steve Cole** » Mon Aug 24, 2015 5:49 pm

Be very careful with the implications of what happened on TV decades ago. They only had one bridge set and only had one model spaceship, and no budget for more, so that's why there was a squadron of cruisers, not because that was logical military doctrine. SFU is based on sound military principles which take precedence over plot devices of bad writers and the limitations of tV production budgets.

Paul B · Post by **Paul B** » Mon Aug 24, 2015 7:30 pm

And yet the Battle of Jutland Opens with two squadrons of Battle Cruisers, one German, one British, engaging one-another with all of the smaller ships merely acting as scouts and not involved in the engagement proper. Or the initial engagement against the Bismark was only the Hood and the Prince of Wales against Bismark and Eugen with again, the smaller cruisers acting as scouts and not directly involved in the battle. There are many times in history where ships of the line were grouped in divisions or squadrons, and given an episode like Balance of Terror and the complete lack of fighter craft in the series TOS seems decidedly based on the age of the ship not the modern age of the fighter (or the missile).

Also the use of Klingon Cruisers by the Romulans was likewise a limitation of the TV budget since they allegedly lost the Romulan model from Balance of Terror but it's been fully integrated by SFU.