Territorial Ambitions.

Itharus · Post by **Itharus** » Thu Sep 29, 2016 9:41 pm

So,

I think I've got a pretty firm grasp of who is allied with whom and where the various empires are physically located, but what exactly is everyone seeking in the general war?

The Federation has more or less declared a (very large) set radius as their territory, and AFAIK are unwilling to expand that militarily. So unless they should bring another empire INTO the Federation, their borders I would assume will not change. Or would they be willing to annex areas of other empires that they have pushed back?

The Gorn I'm not really clear on. Are they expansionist? They've been mentioned in a number of sources as having a penchant for ground combat, and I believe they have warrior honor codes and what not - but how big are they on gaining new ground?

Romulans are pretty easy. They want to rule everything.

Klingons seem to be pretty expansionist. They have an inclination towards conquering weaker civilizations and making them second class citizens.

Lyrans appear to be on the same wavelength as the Klingons from what I've read.

Kzinti - they're the ones that trap species onto their home worlds and don't let them leave, no?

Hydrans seem mostly interested in reclaiming old borders, but I imagine they'd happily colonize suitable gas giants in other people's space if they were allowed. I don't really see them as particularly aggressive militarily, though.

LDR - No idea. What module are they in? I'd like to learn more. I say module because I'm assuming FedCom doesn't really have much background info - am I wrong? Cuz if so, I'd also like to be pointed at which FC product adds them.

ISC - Mostly want to contain the others, no?

Tholians - Not sure if they're content to keep a low profile or if they are just biding their time to make a new empire.

Orion Pirates are parasites on the furry backside of the galaxy already, so I doubt they want to form a legitimate empire.

Seltorians - what they'd do after annihilating the Tholians, I have no idea.

I've probably forgotten someone. I'm not even touching Andromedans or Omega stuff because I've not really looked into that yet.

My whole point/question though, is what are the various powers trying to gain? Or do they just want to keep the status quo? What's the end game? It seems to me unlikely that these empires would fight each other for the sole purpose of disagreement. War tends to seek profit.

Totally secondary question to tack on here: what's the best campaign system to use with Federation Commander? I know there's a whole galactic campaign game called Federation and Empire, but I'm not sure I want to go there yet.

Thanks, all

Dal Downing · Post by **Dal Downing** » Fri Sep 30, 2016 3:25 am

The whole jest of the General War is the Klingons are landlocked. They strike a deal with the Lyrans to conquer the Hydrans. Once the Klingons secure the Kingdom they would help the Lyrans conquer the Kzinti. Of course nothing went as planned.

The Gorns and the Tholians are isolationist. They just want to be left alone.

The Federation seeks to maintain the status quo. They do not want to see the Klingons gain more influence or territory. With the Kzinti on the retreat the Federation thought a bluff show of force would back the Klingons down and it back fired on them.

The Romulans believe it is thier manifest destiny to rule everyone.

The LDR is still loyal to the Lyran Crown but think az long as they pay taxes they should be left to themselves.

The WYN which faction at which time? For the most part they believe the are untouchable in thier cluster and simply sell material to who ever pays them.

Selts once they destroy the Tholians would probably claim Tholian Space as Thiers and use it as a foothold to setup an invasion of the Milky Way.

djdood · Post by **djdood** » Fri Sep 30, 2016 5:37 am

Like Dal said.

There were two major faction groups during the General War. The Alliance (Federation/Gorn/Kzinti/Tholian[sort-of]/Hydran [in a distant way]) and the Coalition (Klingon/Romulan/Lyran). The ISC didn't really get involved until the war exhausted the particpants. The Andromedans showed up later, whupped the over-extended ISC mightily and pretty much scared the pants off everyone. The Orion Pirates just kept on stealing stuff and making money.

There was a time when the Klingons and Feds were on decent, if strained terms. Klingon advisers even served on Federation ships during the last Fed/Kzinti war. (There's a great fiction story with a Klingon exchange officer who served on the CF USS Eagle during the second Juggernaut incursion).

The Federation leaders of the time thought they were stabilizing the situation by clarifying an undefined border with the Klingons. Their new border included vast tracts of space the Klingons considered theirs and they just hadn't gotten around to exploiting yet. It didn't result in instant war, but it was a major catalyst towards the Klingon invasion that came. The other was Klingon fear of just being economically subsumed.

Given their government's nature, it was essentially inevitable that they would feel threatened and attack. They failed to make the inroads they needed quick enough, and the Federation economy they so fear did indeed gear up and push them back out and on the defensive. If not for the exhaustion and the intervention of the ISC, the Klingons could have been rendered moot (which would have been really bad for the Alpha Octant when the Andromedans began their invasion in-earnest).

The Gorns are indeed insular, but not in the paranoid way the Tholians are. The Gorns are just, cheap, if-anything. Their senate rubs every penny together and that frugality alone would keep them from expanding too much. They were mostly concerned with keeping what they had - the brief spat with the Feds quickly shifted into a true alliance, as both had enemies enough and much in common with each other.

The Kzinti would have been a much more significant power, if they didn't waste most of their energy fighting each other. Their in-fighting weakened them and cost them a lot of their territory when the Feds decisively won their last war (and imposed the border declaration).

The Kzintis mutual and pathological hatred of the Lyrans means they both expended huge amounts of energy fighting each other, even when resources or territory weren't necessarily at-stake. This weakened them both. It's a factor in why the Lyrans were definitely the junior partner in their alliance with the Klingons. There was respect there, in both directions, but there was never any doubt about who was the major power and who was not. The Lyrans also spent much effort on their own internal power struggles.

The Romulans are essentially hard-wired as a group to extreme narcissism. Their culture is driven to their being the rightful rulers of the entire galaxy and very little reality dissuades them from that. Pre-warp, they were just a zealous nuisance. After the Treaty of Smarba with the Klingons, the Romulans became a very real threat. The only things that kept them from becoming a threat equal to the Klingons stemmed from their geography and their nature. They had very few native populations to exploit (the Klingons made full use of their numerous subject races) and their own political scheming and in-fighting set them back decades.

The Orions... aren't. The group started off with rebellious Orion national guard ships, but the majority of the pirates aren't Orion. Given that there are cartels operating over the entirety of the Alpha Octant by the General War, their ships could have crewman from almost anywhere. Their own turf fights against each other gave welcome relief to the various empire's police forces.

The Tholians just want to be left alone, to try and rebuild their civilization. They are refugees and trying to keep a low profile, because -
The Seltorians are just plain straight-up genocidal killers. They'll make nice-nice to other species that can be helpful to them, but are hell-bent on killing every Tholian that exists, everywhere, and will keep at it until they do.

The Klingons hated the Tholians too (just not so genocidally) and found them to be a useful leverage against the Tholians and gave them some space and resources, at-first. That all changed when the Klingons found out what the Seltorians were really about.

Itharus · Post by **Itharus** » Fri Sep 30, 2016 6:39 am

But what is everyone trying to gain? Are the various species actually seizing and holding worlds from the others? Are they wiping out populations? Are they plundering?

That's what I meant by the subject title, although I do appreciate the expanding of the political situations, and I didn't realize the Gorn were satisfied with their lot.

I'm just trying to understand what everyone is seeking that keeps the war going. Is anyone actively trying to actually conquer or eliminate anyone else? Minus the Romulans and Seltorians, lol.

Have I misinterpreted the situation? Is this not so much an actual war as it simply is a long series of border skirmishes?

mjwest · Post by **mjwest** » Fri Sep 30, 2016 5:02 pm

The expansionistic powers are primarily concerned with conquering "territory" and adding worlds to their economy. This is mostly the Klingons and Romulans. Both are also fully surrounded, so their only option to expand is armed conflict. Their goal is to add worlds to their empire. Already developed worlds are best. Neither wants to kill off any other species, but they both want to maintain exactly who is in charge (i.e. them).

Also in the above category are the Lyrans and Kzinti, but they both have an added wrinkles:
1) They each have an open border, so they can expand without fighting their neighbors. So, unlike the Romulans and Klingons, they are happy enough with their existing borders (except see next item).
2) They irrationally hate the other. Both the Lyrans and Kzintis want to completely subjugate the other (if not outright eliminate them). So, whether they each have unlimited space or not, they will fight each other to the death because of that hatred. This is NOT economically driven, and is in fact to each of their detriments. It is an irrational, instinctive hatred.

The status quo group is primarily the Federation, Gorn, and Hydrans. All of them are happy enough with their borders with other empires, and all have expansion zones they can exploit. None of them want to expand, per se; rather they are very vested in the status quo. Their goal is simply to maintain the status quo. They want to keep things the way they are, and will fight to do that.

Adjunct to the above is the ISC. They are not expansionistic and should, by nature, be part of the above group. But, because they were introduced to all of the other empires through acts of violence, they pretty much think everyone else is insane. It isn't until much later that they calm down and effectively join the status quo group.

So, what do the ISC want? Unlike the status quo group that are willing to fight to maintain what they have, but are not necessarily willing to fight for anyone else's status quo, the ISC want *perfect* status quo. They don't want anyone else to fight. And, paradoxically, they are completely willing to fight everyone to make everyone stop fighting. Again, like the species-hatred of the Kzinti and Lyrans, this is not rational. Unlike the Kzinti/Lyran hatred, however, the ISC actually learn their lesson and stop worrying about everyone else's fighting.

The Tholians are purely isolationistic. They don't care what anyone else does as long as it doesn't involve them. The only reason they even become involved is because the Klingons attack them. Once the Klingon threat disappears, the Tholians retreat to their isolationism. They just want to be left alone.

And, since someone brought up the Seltorians, they simply want to kill off the Tholians and lack the means to do so. There is no ambiguity around this, either. They would not rest until all Tholians are complete dead. Subjugation is not the goal; they want absolute destruction.

So, hopefully that helps explain what everyone wants within the context of the General War.

Oh, one more approach:
The Federation and ISC are very egalitarian. They are multi-species empire that is open to the inclusion of even more member species. They are very happy to add anyone that wants to join. The Gorns would probably also be in this group, but they don't actually have any other species in their territory.

The Klingons and Hydrans want to maintain species supremacy, but still allow some participation by other species. This has very hard limits, but other species are allowed to participate in the interstellar community as long as they remain very aware of who is actually in charge.

The Lyrans, Kzinti, Romulans, and Tholians allow no challenge to their supremacy. Every other species they encounter is pretty much limited to their home world/system, and that's it. They are almost never allowed in the interstellar community. Seltorians would belong to this group if they had founded an empire in the Milky Way.

mjwest · Post by **mjwest** » Fri Sep 30, 2016 5:14 pm

One extra thing I forgot:
In general, no one wipes out planet populations. A developed planet is an incredibly valuable thing. There are usually no reasons to damage that, as it is much more valuable to instead keep the world as intact as possible and integrated it into the conqueror's empire. So, worlds are subjugated, and military installations wiped out or captured, and there will always be collateral damage. But conquerors want to keep worlds as intact as possible in order to gain their economic output.

There will, of course, be some intentional or accidental exceptions. Sometimes a world will have its infrastructure devastated in order to deny it to the enemy when it cannot be held. Sometimes a symbol must be made. Sometimes a population is inconvenient and has to be eliminated. In general, however, it is more valuable to leave the population and infrastructure for later exploitation.

The fundamental exceptions to the above are the Lyrans/Kzintis and Tholians/Seltorians. The Lyrans/Kzintis are more than willing to wipe out infrastructure, if not populations, as they don't want to include the other's worlds in their empire, but simply desire to kill/devastate the hated enemy. The Tholians and Seltorians are actually trying for extermination. Infrastructure is irrelevant; death of the enemy is all that matters.

Itharus · Post by **Itharus** » Fri Sep 30, 2016 7:48 pm

Was there ever a reason given for Lyran v Kzinti?

Also: so the Lyrans, Klingons, and Romulans are able to hold off the combined forces of basically everyone else? Their military forces are just that extensive?

And do either of you have a campaign system recommendation?

Thanks

djdood · Post by **djdood** » Fri Sep 30, 2016 9:22 pm

I don't think the "reason" for why the Lyrans and Kzinti hate each other so has ever been defined.

The other species (especially the Federation) are perpetually confused by it. The two have so much in common, others wonder why they can't enjoy that similarity.

There has been a mention that a Federation scientist discovered a strong generic link between the two races. IIRC, he died, after presenting it to one of them. They are both humanoid felinoids - it could be as simple (and complicated) as just being "too similar, but just not right".

There are similar implacable hatreds that other species just don't understand. The Gorns ended up on the receiving-end of it, when the Paravians decided the Gorns were demons from their ancient past. They fought the Gorns past any kind of rational limits and the Gorn were finally forced to basically treat them the way the Romulans or Kzinti treat other species and just trap the Paravaians on their home planet, with no spaceflight facilities. It ended badly, and the Gorns carry a lot of guilt about it.

There have been other cases where it goes the other, more-positive, direction. When the Gorns found out about the Skolean species (who were associate members of the Federation), they took to the other reptilians quickly, employing them as fighter pilots in their military and conducting much cultural exchange.

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The reason the Lyrans, Romulans, and (most-especially) the Klingons were able to launch and almost win an invasion of the others is due to their nature.

The Klingon empires is a massive multi-planetary military dictatorship. Their truly gigantic army and space fleet are completely overbuilt to their actual defensive needs. A military that size is aimed at expansion.

Given the resource needs of a military that size, it is only maintained by keeping their civilian populace living at or near poverty. Klingon civilians live very spartan and communal lives - almost all economic gains go towards the government and into the military machine.

This goes double for the inhabitant of the numerous planets the Klingons have conquered. Their people labor hard, to pay the required tribute to the Empire.

Rather than just pump their subjects for economic output, the Klingons take full advantage of the vast population of "subject race" beings within their Empire, something almost unique to them and possibly inherited from their time as vassals of the lost "Old Kings" empire. Most of the "enlisted" crew members on Klingon starships are subject race beings. Many in the army are as well. This huge population is one of their key strengths. The questionable loyalty of some of them is one of their key weaknesses.

But the officers are essentially all Klingon as are the powerful Empire Security Service, who watch everyone, all the time. Rebellion is not tolerated and large-scale open insurrection can lead to your planet being nuked back into the stone age (as the Vergarians learned, the hard way).

This giant population, all laboring to produce for the Empire yields a truly powerful machine, although a temperamental one, and one that pretty much has to keep expanding to survive. The problem with expansionist dictatorships is that they are also rife with corruption (every bureaucratic functionary turns into a little tin-pot despot) and their economies are fragile and extremely inefficient. They could produce so much more, but waste so much on poor-planning and security.

It made the Klingons the only empire that was militarily superior to the gigantic Federation. A force to be reckoned with. They almost succeeded in defeating the Star Fleet and bombarding Earth to conquer the Federation. When they failed to do that quickly, in a prolonged war of attrition their economic weakness was their un-doing.

The Romulans were fantastically powerful for a (very young) two planet, single-species power (they had essentially no native species in their territory). I honestly don't know how they managed it. But, even with all their strength, they were a junior partner to the Klingons (not that they would ever be able to admit that).

The Lyrans were in a similar mode, although they did have some native populations they exploited economically. Their own in-fighting held them back, more than anything else.

Campaign systems are... in-work.
If you just want to game the galaxy at war and the various empires' macro-level actions, the game Federation & Empire is all about that. You control the entire empire (or more than one) in that game and starship battles are viewed from a very high level (an individual ship, if represented at all, is just a set of stats). It's not intended as a campaign system for the other games, it is its own strategic level game, in the same setting.

Federation Admiral will be a campaign system intended for use with any of the tactical games (SFB, FC, ACTASF, etc.). It's been in-work for a long time but has been on the front-burner for several months now and should be coming soon.

It's based on the exiting Victory By Any Means system, but they had some real problems to overcome with making it a system that actually works and works the way players of ADB games expect. I'm sure they'll get it there, but it takes time.