What is being overloaded in photon torpedoes?

[Itharus]

Just a nagging little question I've had - but what is being overloaded in photon torpedoes?

SFU doesn't use the system from Wrath of a Genetically Engineered Sikh. I've seen SFU Photon Torpedoes described basically as a canister of anti-matter (and presumably a like amount of reaction mass, since it does do full damage when impacting shields) that gets energized and launched out in some kind of energy bubble.

So... what's causing the extra 4 or 8 damage? It draws power from the ship, so is it the energy bubble that's being overloaded and adds the extra damage? If it were just an 8 point overload, I'd presume the bubble was made to literally just wrap two canisters at once, but you can do a 4 point overload as well. Does each canister consist of two halves that can be separated?

Is the canister detonated and contained within said energy bubble - in which case it would just be an AM-Plasma torpedo fired at extreme velocity on a ballistic course? Because then I could see the overload being variable, too.

Totally an OCD thing, I know... but that doesn't change that it's bugging me

LOL, my thanks to anyone who humors my odd question

[djdood]

The bits and pieces that have been written about the photon torpedo establish them pretty much as you describe. It's a physical casing (which are kept in-quantity and more can be produced on-demand if needed), loaded with anti-matter from the ship's supply. They are fired out of heavily-reinforced launching tubes. Their firing imposes shock and stresses onto the ship which puts a practical limit on how many can be mounted.

My personal take (trying to avoid later trek-ism) is that the launching tube is a very small and very powerful array of warp coils, which use some of that required warp energy [see below] to drop the torpedo very deep into subspace and kick it up to extreme warp speeds, such that their travel time to the limit of their range is essentially instant. (The Hydran Hellbore is similar).

FedCom does make one giant change, which does change the flavor of photon torpedos from SFB. In their original form in SFB, photon torpedoes are just as big of an energy hog, but what makes them even more tricky to use is that the energy all has to come from from the warp engines (robbing precious energy needed to move at more than speed 1; which also has to come from the warp engines).

In FedCom, energy is just energy. In SFB, "warp energy" is special. It being used for the photon torpedo probably represents taking antimatter that could have been used in the engines and loading it into the photon torpedo instead.

One thing you missed is that the overloaded version is flexible - it doesn't have to be a additional full 4 points, it can be partial (just 2).

In SFB, the photon has additional useful tricks, like the proximity warhead.

[Itharus]

Oh, did I get the numbers wrong? I thought it was +4 and +8. It's +2 and +4 then? Feds are not my preferred empire .

I'm ultimately trying to figure out where the additional damage is coming from in relation to the energy used, though. The damage is a static figure at all ranges - presumably the annihilation reaction that occurs when the AM hits the reaction mass.

The thing is though - why is the extra energy coming from the ship? If it's just bottled up AM and reaction mass, that wouldn't require any ship's energy - no? Unless extra AM was taken directly from the ship's fuel tanks for the boost (Warp Drives use AM and Reaction mass to make things go (AM reactor), impulse engines use their own fusion reactors, etc).

If the annihilation reactions actually occurs in-tube, then you could actually add to that amount by literally diverting "warp plasma" (ie: the energetic soup that results from an annihilation reaction) directly into the tube. Again though... if you have canisters of spare AM laying around - why bother? This method would make the requirement of warp energy in SFB make 100% sense though - as it would just be balls of warp plasma shot out in a containment sphere. Instead of a detonation on impact, the sphere would just break on impact and let the plasma expand... although at the velocities involved it would likely penetrate pretty well.

Just the energy bubble being overcharged would make the damage not a static amount, at least I would assume.

Wheeeeee

[djdood]

The numbers on the track on the cards is how much damage the torpedo will do, not how much energy went into it. (Yes, it was noted that it would have made more sense to have it indicate how much power went into the torpedo, since it is an "arming track", but that ship sailed, 10+ years ago).

To arm a single photon torpedo as a standard load, you apply 2 points of power on a (first) turn and then, on a second turn, apply two more (for a total of 4). That 4 points of power gives 8 damage points (if it hits).

Overloading a torpedo can be done at any point in that process and can be done with either 2 additional points (adding 4 points to the yield) or a full 4 points (doubling the total cost to 8 points, but also doubling the yield to the feared 16 points).

In SFB, the explosive yield is all from annihilation of antimatter, at the time of impact (it's in the canister at the time of launch and all goes boom when the torpedo hits). That antimatter was diverted from the ship's engine supply, including the extra amounts used to overload. If that supply is from storage of antimatter or directly from the engine's themselves has never been made completely clear (and doesn't really need to be, especially in FedCom). Drawing "warp power only" is why they are particularly painful to arm in SFB, as doing so slows your ship and overloading them slows your ship to a crawl. This pain is not as apparent in FedCom, because in FedCom power is power.

Because of that abstraction, your question cannot be answered in FedCom terms - FedCom abstracted out the unique "tech bit" that makes them go "boom". In FedCom, they are essentially "electrical torpedoes" as that is where their arming energy comes from (the ship's all-purpose power grid) in the game mechanics.

It's a loss of flavor, but one that reduced huge amounts of hassle and paperwork in the game.

[Sgt_G]

It's a physical casing (which are kept in-quantity and more can be produced on-demand if needed),

None of the official ADB deck plans support that. Nor do the old FASA or Franz Joseph or Matt Jefferies deck plans.

In my mind, I see it as a pure energy weapon, but there is a physical object required. Call it a fuse, about the size of a toaster, that holds a small amount (a few milligrams) of antimatter held in stasis. It is inserted into the launch tube and powered up to generates a magnetic bubble about 1x1.5x2 meters, which is then filled with tachyon-enriched plasma from the warp drive (or AWR). Once it has critical-mass, it can be launched as a standard torpedo. To overload it, more warp plasma in injected, increasing the amount of matter-antimatter reactions that can occur before the explosion dissipates the matter. Overloading also increases the pressure in the bubble, which is why 80K km is the max overload range as the bubble will fail soon after.

When launched, a tiny hole is opened in the bubble creating a jet of warp plasma which, being tachyon enriched, propels the torpedo at ultra-high warp speeds. If the fuse detects the target ship inside the blast range, it will drop the stasis around the antimatter, which of course reacts with the tachyon-enriched plasma causing a small but powerful hyper-warp shock wave which will damage the target ship even if the torpedo itself never physically hits said target. The smallest error in the torpedo's flight path means it won't detect the target and thus won't explode. Of course, the fuse can be set to a longer detection range, hence meaning the proximity torpedo will explode near but not close to the target.

[djdood]

None of the official ADB deck plans support that. Nor do the old FASA or Franz Joseph or Matt Jefferies deck plans.

I'm not denying that there is a discrepancy, but that very wording is in the rules for FedCom.

[Magnum357]

Be careful djdood. When I involved with SFC years ago, topics like this sometimes caused flame wars on message boards.

I agree with others on this subject. I always looked at these early Photon systems as basically "Plasma-charged" Photon casings launched through some kind of accelerator torward the target. Deriving this energy from the ships EPS power system.

Antimatter is a tricky substance to handle. Surely this has to be some kind of "Xfinity" type of weapon right?

[djdood]

Thanks for the caution, it's appreciated as we do try to maintain decorum and decency around here - lest the mighty hammer of the mods have to come down.

Luckily, I've known Garth online for years and years and we can debate things civilly, even if we disagree. In this case, it's all just data.

[Itharus]

I am 100% not trying to instigate a flame war of any sort by making this thread. This is a legitimate thing that I ponder on. My brain pretty much constantly thinks about 50 or so different things all at once and independently -- sadly for me much of those thoughts are questions, because I'm a curious person (double entendre intended ^_^). ADHD can be a blessing and a curse

I prefer the warp/annihilation reaction plasma approach too, honestly. It makes the most plausible sense. It just begs the question "then what's the photon about?". I think post genetically engineered Sikh the explanation was something along the lines of the energy bubble/force field used sheds light as some sort of interaction with the low level warp field the torpedo sustains or some such... which could jive with Sgt_G's comment.

That and the old torpedo effect was a bolt of energy... not a dang coffin.

[djdood]

Looking at SVC's "My Day" blog on the legacy bbs, it looks like this forum discussion has inspired a future article for Captain's Log or some other official place.

Good to see crunchy technical discussions getting noticed and elevated.

[Itharus]

Right on!

[Steve Cole]

In a nutshell, sending twice as much anti-matter into the torpedo requires twice as much energy to hold things together.

[Sgt_G]

It works however SVC wants it to.

In my design, the antimatter is in the physical fuse box (about the size of a toaster, so "smaller than a breadbox"). Adding more tachyon-enriched warp-plasma increases the density / pressure resulting in more matter-antimatter reactions and thus a bigger explosion. It doesn't need more antimatter to work.

But as I said above, it's really however SVC wants it to be. I'm just offering a suggestion. He may use or ignore it at his will.

[Itharus]

In a nutshell, sending twice as much anti-matter into the torpedo requires twice as much energy to hold things together.

Is there any sort of reaction mass included? If not, I'm surprised the torpedo would have any effect on the shields. Thanks for commenting, by the way!

[djdood]

I think it would be best to table the questions and wait and see what the boss writes up.