Federation Commander

I can't see each ship card having anymore than three gunboats on it (based on SFB needing a full page for a six PF SSD), so boosters with additional copies of all the gunboat cards from the module will be needed to give players an affordable access to more copies. Assuming there are the typical three supporting booster packs, if the non-monster cards (I am assuming we get the banshees) are divided evenly between the boosters with a single additional copy of each card that would give an initial five cards for each booster. If SVC went that route each booster would need three new cards to make an eight card boosters. There have been boosters associated with border/attack modules that have introduced two new ships, however I don't believe any had three. I am in favour of anything that increases the number of different ships available to players, however I don't know the impact having three new ships in each of the associated boosters would have on costs and time needed for the module.

An easy choice for the additional cards for the boosters would be to give an many empires as possible a card that includes both the leader and scout variant of their gunboat. I know Mjwest has expressed a desire to limit them to BoM, however there is tradition of boosters providing command variants of ships in module they are associated with. A possible argument against this (in addition to those already given) is I believe the Fed scout is the only ship in any previous booster with special sensors. Having scout gunboats as the only widely available special sensor equipped ships on laminated cards just doesn't feel right. As much as I would like having nice laminated command and scout variants, I have to concede Mjwest is probably right that their are other gunboat variants better suited to being in the boosters. Besides, since tugs, LTTs, aegis escorts and (we can safely assume in Fighters Attack) carriers have already been provided elsewhere, something need to be kept for BoM .

Even without the command and scout variants there are more useful gunboats than there are likely to be slots in the boosters. Once some of the obvious choices like giving the Klingons one of their combat variants, the Kzinti drone variant, the Archnid-W for the Tholians, a variant of whatever the Feds get (since I believe it has been mentioned before products with Federation ships usually sell well) etc ae included slots in the boosters are rapidly filling up. I guess the Gorn would get the Pterodactyl-D or E, however I am not overly familiar with Gorn PFs. Fortunately we have Communique, providing gunboat variants could be a theme for new ship cards. Or if Gunboats Attack is sufficiently successfully, maybe a follow up Gunboats Reinforced (incredibly unlikely, but I can dream)?

As well as the Romulans having both the Centurion and Starhawk, I think it would be good for Hydrans to get both the Harrier and the Hellion (and for sake of all non-Hydrans we should forget the Howler exists). However I don't think having either the Romulan or Hydran variants in the base module would be the best option. A lot of modules have a card with something useful for several empires. A base, auxiliary, or civilian ship. I think a card of that nature is a better choice, since it gives most purchasers three cards that can be used with their favorite empire (their gunboat, the card shared by most empires, and the monster to fight against).

Going beyond the discussion about how the product could be structured, their is an issue with gunboats in FC that doesn't exist in SFB that will need to be adequately resolved. Gunboats in FC will need to work in both the squadron and the fleet scales. How those gunboats with odd numbers of heavy weapons scale down to fleet scale needs to be considered. The choice to round up or down (or a third option?) effects the firepower and energy demands, which will need to reflected in the fleet scale points costs for gunboats like the Centurion and the Buccaneer.

A bit early for me to comment on these, since I haven't even tried to do a PF card and we're still debating how to do the warp packs which make the ships effectively bigger. Anyway....

There might be two or three PFs per card. i'm not sure. I cannot see more than three but given the way we did skiffs before I don't think three is a given. I think two is more likely. A flotilla would have three cards (leader + scout, two gunboats, two variant gunboats).

The only problem with three "new" ships per booster is the time to create and test them, but do remember that the boosters for REINFORCEMENTS had seven or eight new ships.

If we figure on Klingons, Romulans (probably just give them one type for now), Kzintis, Gorns, Tholians, Orions, Hydrans, Lyrans, Vudar, and ISC, that is ten. You need at least four per empire (a tender and the flotilla) so figure 40 cards, which is 16 in the main pack and eight new cards in each of three boosters. That's pretty much the minimum. You could do four more boosters just by providing a second flotilla for each empire, but I'm not sure anyone would want that.

And we haven't even gotten into more combat variants, ficons (probably in E=packs), Feds, Borak, Peladine, and other PFTs. Then again, do we even need PFTs?

I'm not sure I'd want to see a Fleet Scale gunboat. It might be better to halve the size of a Fleet Scale flotilla instead, akin to how Stingers are treated on Hydran Ship Cards.

Would using the same kind of layout done for the Andromedan Cobra and Viper be an option for Alpha Octant PFs?

Speaking of Andros, would MWPs count as "Interceptors" (in the sense that if they were to be published anywhere, it would be with gunboats) or as "fighters" (in that they would be lined up with FC/BoM fighters instead)?

For what it's worth, I don't mind the idea of using Gunboats Attack to do "casual" PFs, as suggested over in the equivalent BBS topic - and, if the demand existed by then, to later consider a separate Borders of Madness module which included PF tenders, space control ships, and/or Andromedan monitors (should MWPs be listed under this category).

So far as variants go, I'm not sure if the likes of Fi-cons should be a high priority, or if they ought to exist in FC outside of BoM. I do think that survey PFs would be welcome (not least since they often show up as "casual" PFs on ships assigned to this mission), as would workboats (so as to expand the range of "civilian" options in the game system).

Agreed.

Once you get down to the tiny ships, Fleet scale gets squirrely (thus the invention of the SYS box). It could very well be fine to leave PFs as just "the scale they're at" (i.e. SFB stats ported to FC squadron scale) and just use less of them in a flotilla to adjust for Fleet/Squadron point balances.

Also agree that the Andromedan Cobra 3-per-card arrangement may have some utility for PFs. (still proud of my diamond for suggesting that for War & Peace). The key there was to not duplicate the info boxes with point costs, speed costs, etc. and to rotate one "ship" such that 3 of the card edges were usable for energy tracks (assuming gunboats in FC end up even bothering with energy-tracking).

[Long-time readers, do take note. This is twice I've agreed with Gary Carney, in just one post]

I personally don't see a need for PFTs in the main product. They're an artifact of the restrictions from SFB and F&E, none of which impose onto FC (which is why everybody gets battleships, etc.). In a quite common FC point-value pickup fight, they're not very useful - just expensive "targets".

I do think PFTs may have some value as Communique ships and would provide a whole new class to mine for supply of "new ships" that wouldn't hurt sales of something else.

Variants are something I would think would be a secondary decision to make, once the basic structure of the product is ironed out. If the layout allows room, then things like leader and scout version could be neat, but could easily be ignored and/or shunted to booster packs. They're somewhat required in SFB; FC has no such restrictions.

Really esoteric stuff like Fi-Con variants, the Hydran Howler, etc. I would push to Captain's Log or some other venue. They're interesting diversions, but not fundamental to putting gunboats in FC and including them would rob a slot from something more important.

djdood wrote: [Long-time readers, do take note. This is twice I've agreed with Gary Carney, in just one post]

ROTF

This one comment just made my entire day.
Nothing against Gary.. he's an incredible fan of the SFU and has made many valuable contributions.
Gary is as strongly opinionated as I am... but with far different interests. I therefore; typically find myself on the opposite side of the coin from Gary in many discussions and this causes the agreements to stand out.

There is a reason why Gary has a rare BFF honor bar on the Wall of Honor.