BOM: Fighters and Carriers

thebart · Post by **thebart** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:43 am

Are there any Borders of Madness rules for Fighters and Carriers in Captain's log, if so which one?

wedge_hammersteel · Post by **wedge_hammersteel** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:58 am

Captain's Log 37 : Fighters

thebart · Post by **thebart** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 4:23 pm

Thanks
Are there any BOM carrier rules? If not how do they function in SFB so I can convert them.

Bolo_MK_XL · Post by **Bolo_MK_XL** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 4:47 pm

Are there any BOM carrier rules? If not how do they function in SFB so I can convert them.

Thats a book in itself ---

Theres Drone storage rules
Drone, Plasma, Plasma D, Distruper, Photon loading rules
Launching/Recovery rules
Ground crews
Repair rules
Etc

mjwest · Post by **mjwest** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 5:14 pm

The framework for how carriers work is giving in the CL37 BoM article. Specifically launch, recovery, and reload information is provided. The article only covers drone fighters (and photon and disruptor fighters). It would be trivial to extend it to cover Pl-D, too. (Pl-F is a little trickier.)

Note that the article only covers Feds and Klingons, but a Communique (forget which) also has a Kzinti carrier and fighters, too.

Wolverin61 · Post by **Wolverin61** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:45 pm

mjwest wrote:Note that the article only covers Feds and Klingons, but a Communique (forget which) also has a Kzinti carrier and fighters, too.

Communique #39 has the Kzinti CVS.

thebart · Post by **thebart** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:50 pm

Ahh, ok i'l get CL 37, then.

Last (hopefully) question: Is it possible for a fighter to fly unsupported with a carrier to land on, for example in a raid mission where the carrier is far too dangerous to place on the battlefield?

mjwest · Post by **mjwest** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:57 pm

Not directly, no. But then, neither does the rules for Stingers.

The whole idea of "fighter raids" and "off map carriers" is way beyond the level of rules that Federation Commander is trying for. So, if you an your opponent want to have a fighter squadron do a raid, then go for it. If not, don't. Remember that Federation Commander is a lot more "free form" than SFB.

Also, realize that drone fighters only have two drones each and need a carrier to reload. Likewise, DF fighters only have the charges they arrive with, and need a carrier to recharge. So, any scenario that consists of just a squadron fighters on one side needs to have goals that they can accomplish knowing they will not get to reload.

Hod K'el · Post by **Hod K'el** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:02 pm

mjwest wrote:Also, realize that drone fighters only have two drones each and need a carrier to reload.

I hate to tell you this, Mike, but the missile fighters have four missiles. Just check out CC#39, the Kzinti CVS.

I personally use direct fire fighters because it is so hard to shoot down direct fire weapons as compared to missiles.

mjwest · Post by **mjwest** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:25 pm

Hod K'el wrote:
mjwest wrote:Also, realize that drone fighters only have two drones each and need a carrier to reload.

I hate to tell you this, Mike, but the missile fighters have four missiles. Just check out CC#39, the Kzinti CVS.

I personally use direct fire fighters because it is so hard to shoot down direct fire weapons as compared to missiles.

Oops! You are correct, they do.

However, it is a mistake. Only the extremely rare F-15 should have four drones. The Klingon Z-Y and Kzinti TAAS/TADS should only have two. That will not be addressed until BoM #2, so you have a while with your extra drones!

Hod K'el · Post by **Hod K'el** » Sun Nov 08, 2009 9:42 pm

mjwest wrote:The framework for how carriers work is giving in the CL37 BoM article. Specifically launch, recovery, and reload information is provided. The article only covers drone fighters (and photon and disruptor fighters). It would be trivial to extend it to cover Pl-D, too. (Pl-F is a little trickier.)

I think that there should not be a PL-F on any fighter, not even Orion fighters! Think about this! Even with PL-D's, if all twelve launch against the same ship and do not hit until next impulse, that's 96 points of damage. In the meantime, you might kill two or three fighters. But I do believe in PL-D fighters...great little superiority fighters! But PL-F?

And, yes, I know they were in SFB.

terryoc · Post by **terryoc** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:02 am

I am not sure I agree that there should be no plasma-F fighters in FC at all. If you manage to get the fighters that close then yes, the ship is in trouble, especially if you anchor it. But that's no different to Stingers. Certainly they should be carefully playtested.

Orions don't have any native fighters; they use whatever they can get. Mostly the standard fighter of the race of the area they're operating in, assault fighters with plasma-Fs would be a rarity for them in any case.

Hod K'el · Post by **Hod K'el** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:01 am

This may be one of the issues on which we will have to agree to disagree. The reason I say this is due to the missile concept of the PL-F verses the direct fire of the Stingers. Any attack craft using a PL-F as its primary weapon can launch from range and not have to worry about the damage it takes since it is so far away from the vessel it is attacking.

If you had a strike cruiser with eight of these attack craft, that would be eight PL-F incoming. Even if you get hit three turns later, your taking a pounding. If they were drones incoming, you can destroy a drone with a PH-3 hit of 4 damage points, which is 12 points of damage you avoid, but with a PL-F, that is only two points of reduced damage, and you know that you are still going to take considerable damage.

When compairing this to the PL-D, after three impulses of travel, three PL-D equals one drone if you fire three PH-3 into each of them. This seems much more fair to me. [Is this correct English?]

Basically, we have to compare seeking weapon attack craft with or between each other just as we have to compare direct fire attack craft with or between each other.

As for the Orion fighters, in SFB I used the S-7...they were cheap, fast enough, carried two Type VI missiles, and could get air superiority against alot of opponents...but not against F14 or F15 strike fighters. In FC, I use the Klingon ZD.

Good hunting!

terryoc · Post by **terryoc** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:55 pm

Hod K'el, I think you mean three impulses later, not turns...

There's a few limiting factors here. Firstly, plasma carriers will not have launch tubes liek Hydrans, or even balconies like Gorns do in SFB. Launch rates will be limited, so getting your strike together will take time. I also would expect launches to be limited to targets within 8 hexes, as they are with drones. Sure getting 8 plasma-Fs launched at your ship is going to hurt, but getting the fighters into position to launch those plasma-Fs is going to take a fair amount of work. I think that in practice pl-F fighters are just not going to be that deadly, and plasma races may well end up preferring plasma-D armed fighters simply because they're more effective against drones.

Hod K'el · Post by **Hod K'el** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 5:32 am

terryoc wrote:Hod K'el, I think you mean three impulses later, not turns....

You are correct and I stand corrected...

terryoc wrote:There's a few limiting factors here. Firstly, plasma carriers will not have launch tubes liek Hydrans, or even balconies like Gorns do in SFB. Launch rates will be limited, so getting your strike together will take time.

By the rules, all carriers launch 4 attack craft per impulse, so after three impulses, all attack craft are launched from fleet carriers and after two impulses, all attack craft are launched from strike carriers and light carriers.

terryoc wrote:I also would expect launches to be limited to targets within 8 hexes, as they are with drones.

As of right now, the rules do not indicate this, but I do think they will. It would just make good sense and maintain continuity within the game.

terryoc wrote:Sure getting 8 plasma-Fs launched at your ship is going to hurt, but getting the fighters into position to launch those plasma-Fs is going to take a fair amount of work.

Ah, now we disagree. I believe it is a matter of how well one understands movement of ships verses attack craft; in essence, how good are you at the game, or how talented are you in some inherent manner.

terryoc wrote:I think that in practice pl-F fighters are just not going to be that deadly, and plasma races may well end up preferring plasma-D armed fighters simply because they're more effective against drones.

You may be right on this. I think that if one were to go offensive, it would be with the PL-F units, but defensive would be the PL-D units. Then, again, one could mix them up and field a formidable force. Mmm, now you got me thinking...