Frame Damage and Skip Points

[Doublesixjunkie]

A ship takes 25 internal hits. The 23rd hit cannot be allocated as both results are already unavailable, this results in a skip point.

Does this point then become the 6th on that particular row ie: do you add it directly after the 25th hit, or do you roll a new die and get a new table to use.

What happens if both results are also unavailable on the 6th result and seventh etc.

Does this continue until the 10th result which then becomes Frame damage?

Thanks.

[mjwest]

Yes, you got it correct.

The skipped point immediately moved after the 25th hit and is applied to the 6th column. If both of those items are not available, then it is again immediately added to the end of the list and is applied to the 7th column. Assuming all "skips", this would indeed end up in the 10th column and will then be a warp hit, or a frame damage hit if there are no warp boxes left.

You always take your damage through to the end of the row before rolling again. So, if you do one hit on a ship with no boxes remaining other than frame damage, you will go through all of the columns to the 10th column and hit a frame damage box.

[wedge_hammersteel]

Skip points take too long to blow up a ship. You need to try the alternate method of damage allocation.

If you go to allocate damage and both the primary system and secondary system are destroyed, the ship will take a frame damage box.

[DirkSJ]

Skip points take too long to blow up a ship. You need to try the alternate method of damage allocation.

If you go to allocate damage and both the primary system and secondary system are destroyed, the ship will take a frame damage box.

Ouch. That would blow up ships entirely too fast imo. Especially smaller ships or ships with few "free hit" systems.

[phul]

Skip points take too long to blow up a ship. You need to try the alternate method of damage allocation.

If you go to allocate damage and both the primary system and secondary system are destroyed, the ship will take a frame damage box.

I prefer to stick with the method in the RB. And the games I play with 3-4 ships per side still only take 1-2 hours. Not seeing the 'time' issue.

[wedge_hammersteel]

We noticed that when we had a battle with an Andro vs a Fed. The Andro didnt have the same systems or as many as the Fed.

phul, if I recall correctly, the method that I mentioned is in the RB too but as a secondary or alternative method. And I find it hard to believe that you can conclude an 8 ship battle in 2 hours.

[Scoutdad]

Burt...
We can finish an 8 ship battle in two hours.
If two, well seasoned (read as gray-haired and over-the-hill) members of BGM are playing and we have 4 or 5 squadron scale ships on each side - then 2 hours is not a problem.

Cut it to 4 ships (total) and add two more players and you can make it 3 hours or more.

We think it stems from not having to discuss strategies with your allies and such.
And we take every opportunity to "enhance" the speed of hte game.
During the initial, closing Impulses... we may make all three or four moves at the same time...
During the final Impulses, when power has been expended or weapons fired and no Impulse Activty Procedures are possible... we skip right over them...
And we limit table chatter to a minimum...

Add two more players and,
You're discussing strategies...
You're discussing multiple non-FC related topics...
You have to go throug hthe SOP step-by-step to insure nothing is overlooked...
etc.

[Wolverin61]

We only play fleet scale but I can't tell you how long the games take because I don't watch the clock while we're playing

[DirkSJ]

We noticed that when we had a battle with an Andro vs a Fed. The Andro didnt have the same systems or as many as the Fed.

phul, if I recall correctly, the method that I mentioned is in the RB too but as a secondary or alternative method. And I find it hard to believe that you can conclude an 8 ship battle in 2 hours.

The game just isn't balanced around doing the DAC this way. You are giving a huge advantage to ships like the Feds that have more auxiliary systems.

This is not in the rules the way you describe. (3E1a) says a player may choose to take skips on frame but they are never required. If you want to require it at your table...fine. But it's not actually a secondary or alternative method and the game will not be balanced.

It's balanced around a captain being able to choose to take them if they want to. That choice will vary from ship to ship and will depend on what damage you've taken so far.

[DirkSJ]

A followup note on this:
I decided to do a few tests using the skips = frame method. I took damage as roll a 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 in order down the chart.

A Rom War Eagle blows up after 46 hits after armor with that method. With using skips it takes 60 hits. That is a HUGE difference. The War Eagle at time of explosion still has 1/4 of it's boxes and while not amazing would still have battle impact.

A similar fed ship, the War Destroyer (98 points), blows up by your method with only 4 boxes remaining. It was able to take almost all 60 damage. If your method were balanced it also would have roughly a quarter of it's boxes remaining.

I learned a rather important thing: Always take a ship with center warp. With your method any ship without one is going to blow up a LOT faster as C Warp hits are all underneath things that get burned out really fast and thus without a C Warp you go right to frame.

[wedge_hammersteel]

dirk....Its in the rulebook, its not the primary method of damage allocation, you dont have to use it so its.....what for it.....an alternate way of doing damage allocation. If its not the primary way that most players perform damage allocation then....wait for it again...its a secondary method of performing damage allocation.

[DirkSJ]

dirk....Its in the rulebook, its not the primary method of damage allocation, you dont have to use it so its.....what for it.....an alternate way of doing damage allocation. If its not the primary way that most players perform damage allocation then....wait for it again...its a secondary method of performing damage allocation.

Find me the rule number. It's not in my rulebook. I reread the entire 3D section and there are no secondary allocation methods as you describe. There is only the one.

[wedge_hammersteel]

3E1a

[DirkSJ]

3E1a

"(3E1a) Any Damage Points which cannot be scored by the Damage Allocation Charts ("skipped" points) can be (but do not have to be) scored on Frame Damage instead of being added to the end of the Damage Allocation procedure (3D)."

Note the "but do not have to". No captain has to take a frame hit for a skip and it's not implied that this is an alternate method of allocation. This is simply something you can do to save yourself hits; just like 3E1d.

3E1a and 3E1d are a list of player options. Not of GAME options. If you want to choose to take skips as frames, go ahead, you can, it says you can, but you can change your mind every single skip.

It's never required and it's not an alternate DAC method...it's just forcing someone to opt to use 3E1a all the time which the rule specifically says you are NEVER forced to do.

[wedge_hammersteel]

Its an alternate method of DAC, its another way to do DAC, it gives a player a choice while playing the game, there is not only one way to do DAC, there are different ways to do DAC.

Where is MJ when you need him?