Worst value for the points

[mojo jojo]

I would have to say that the ISC fleet scale CC is the worst value for the points. It costs 15 pts more than the CA and what you get is a total of 2 power and 1 Bridge box extra. Otherwise the 2 ships are identical...

[terryoc]

Yes I noticed that. Actually I think the CA is undercosted at Fleet Scale.

[marcus_aurelius]

I always thought that the Klingon D6 was the worst value for the points.

In a best case oblique attack I get only 5 Phaser-2 & 4 Disruptors on target.
If I mess up the approach, then it is only 3 Phaser-2 & 4 Distruptors -OR- only 5 Phaser-2. Only this for almost the cost of a D7/D7C.

Of course I might be biased since I would rather take a D5 over even a D7C.
I am so spoiled by the D5 distrupor arcs that I find it difficult to manage only FA Disruptor arcs.

[terryoc]

Again, the D5 is notoriously undercosted... most CWs are a great buy for the points. Comparing it to a D7 is IMO rather unfair to the D7.

[mjwest]

OK, if we are going to do this discussion, let's keep some things in mind.

1) Feel free to grip about the point values of any ships you want to. But, keep the acrimony out of it, and don't impugn those who set the point values.

2) Don't expect any to change. There have been a couple mistakes (e.g. LDR CA) and a couple likely mistakes (e.g. Tholian DD). But, for the most part, the point values are what they are.

3) Be aware that some are really old discussions, and need to be kept short. (The whole "D5 is too cheap" is an old, old discussion in SFB.)

[terryoc]

OK, bearing in mind Mike's comments:

I think the Federation New Command Cruiser and BCJ are poor buys for the points.

On the other hand, the Orion Fleet Scale CR is a steal at 70 points IMO.

[pinecone]

I'd say that, while the BCJ is overpointed, the NCC is perfectly fine.

The Fed CL is very bad for it's points. But I still like the little ship.

The Orion LR is very, very good for it's point value.

The F5 is bad for it's BPV, merely because it was given an unfortunately high move cost.

All of the selts are overpointed, but not by that much.

Okay, I'm done complaining for now

[Dan Ibekwe]

Hydran Dragoon, 148; Hydran Iroquois, 136 for effectively the same ship with one less fighter and more useful firing arcs for the hellbores.

I think I understand 'why' the DG was overcosted from way back in the early history of SFB...but if there's ever an Admiral's Edition...?

[mojo jojo]

The K9R is a poor value at 269 compared to the CNH at 263. The only real advantage it has is a better turn mode while the CNH has more and better weapons and far more power, plus slightly better shielding.

Most escort versions of ships are a poor value compared to the base version unless aegis rules are in play. They tend to cost significantly more for roughly comparable weapon suites.

BTW, the Orion Raider at fleet scale must be a mistake. It is 100 pts squadron scale and 70 pts fleet scale!

[mjwest]

BTW, the Orion Raider at fleet scale must be a mistake. It is 100 pts squadron scale and 70 pts fleet scale!

The fleet scale point value is not a mistake. The fleet scale orion raider is way better than half the squadron scale orion raider. Thus its higher point value.

[OGOPTIMUS]

The Master Ship Chart gives the BPV of the CR in fleet scale as 52, not 70. The note for it does say that the ship card is wrong.

An even bigger steal?

[mjwest]

The Master Ship Chart gives the BPV of the CR in fleet scale as 52, not 70. The note for it does say that the ship card is wrong.

Hmm. I'll have to try and remember to check that tonight. That would be a mistake.

[rulesjd]

Old discussion. The point values, largely lifted from SFB, reflect the realities of that rule set. FC is enough different as a game that the values may be off.

Even given the differences between FC and SFB, there are elements to the costing which aren't easy to calculate. Yes the D6 has worse weapons suites than other ships. However, the D6 may also be larger and more able to take damage than SOME vessels with superior weapons. Also, you should consider the fluff. A D6 will likely be fighting a Fed CL as a contemporary. Against late war designs like the NCL, Sparrowahwks, ISC, etc. this is likely a mothball/third echelon unit.

Point values, arrived at by a closely held formula, are not exactly rocket science. They should be regarded as representing a relativity scale. Opinions can and do vary on accuracy of point values and there are bound to be ships within the spectrum that most agree are the "worst" valued.

Having played the game since the 70's I am somewhat philosophical about these issue and they really don't detract from the game experience. I find a far larger issue for me is the lack of real ship roles. Apart from Carriers or scout ships, most vessels are simply larger or smaller versions of the same thing. Battleships while having more weapons and defense don't provide greater range nor, on a weapon for weapon basis greater throw weight. Gunboats and destroyers don't possess weapons which are of particular concern to larger vessels. Ships are more equivalent to modern jet fighters. This is why I like scenarios which force you to use specific ships to achieve specific objectives rather than simply picking the best design to go to a gunfight.

[Drew Klenotic]

I wonder if part of the BCJ's overpointing comes from the fact that it can't fire all 6 photons in one turn. In SFB, you have a choice.... "Damn the shock damage! All Torpedoes ahead!"

But in FC, you can't.

[storeylf]

Ships are more equivalent to modern jet fighters.

I tend to see them as a more age of sail equivalent, 1st rate to 5th rate type of thing. Bigger ship = more guns amd more staying power, but beyond that they just sit somewhere in the line of battle (or stack of battle) and shoot away.