Federation Commander

[mjwest]

Oh, and just because I don't feel like jumping around to find them, here is the current form of the provisional cloak change rules:

(5P3c) Seeking Weapons: At the instant that the ship becomes fully cloaked, seeking weapons may lose tracking. If the cloaked ship's allocated speed (2A1) is Stopped or Speed Zero, all weapons more than one hex from the ship are removed. If the cloaked ship's allocated speed is Speed 8, all seeking weapons more than four hexes from the ship are removed. If the cloaked ship's allocated speed is Speed 16 (or higher), all weapons more than eight hexes from the ship are removed.

(5P3d) Voided Cloaks:
1. The cloak is voided for two impulses, not four, assuming that the cloak remains active that long. In cases where the cloak is continually re-voided (e.g., the ship is held in a tractor beam) the cloak is, indeed, continually re-voided.
2. While the ship with a voided cloak loses most of the benefits of being cloaked, damage from seeking and direct-fire weapons is still reduced by 50%.

EDIT: (5P3c) has been modified to prevent the use of Emergency Deceleration to reduce the speed for purposes of removing seeking weapons. Therefore, it references the ship's allocated Speed, not just their current Speed. (It includes the "or higher" for Speed 16 because the ship could have allocated Speed 24, but that is immediately reduced to Speed 16 when the cloak is activated.)
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Federation Commander Answer Guy

[Steve Cole]

From what few playtest reports I have seen, the combination of emer decel and cloak is too much. Emer decel doesn't make the drones go away; cloaking at speed Zero does. I think it's too much of a freebie. There may be a cost, but the cost is too low.

That said, there aren't nearly enough playtest reports to prove the case either way, so nothing happens for now. The rule is not approved or rejected, but still in playtest.

Here's an alternative. I will approve the rule immediately IF AND ONLY IF we change it to say that the operative speed for cloaking is before any emer decel during that turn and you can then try to convince me by playtesting to remove the exception.
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The Guy Who Designed Fed Commander

[mjwest]

[ncrcalamine]

rules question /clairification

ship that will cloak is going speed 16

start of impulse: emergency deceleration
speed now stopped
in subpulse ship pays for cloak and begins to fade out
(I don't have rules in front of me , not sure when paying for cloak occurs)


next impulse ship cloaked
which seeking weapons are removed:
the weapons 9+ hexes away
or the weapons 2+ hexes away
as the speed was stopped before the cloak started


thanks
nicole

[mjwest]

Your allocated Speed is still 16. So, only drones 9+ hexes away will be removed. To get the 2+ hexes away to work, you would have had to start the turn with a Speed of Zero or Stopped.

Fundamentally, this means that Emergency Deceleration has no affect on how (5P3c) treats your Speed. As far as (5P3c) is concerned, you are still Speed 16.

(Which is the entire point of the change.)
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Federation Commander Answer Guy

[ncrcalamine]

thx

[ncrcalamine]

additional clairification

is it the ships speed at the time the seekers were launched

or at the time the ship becomes cloaked

ie seeking weapons aimed at ship
impulse 8, ship's speed is 16, ship begins cloaking- fad out

next turn set ship speed to zero

impulse 1 ship fully cloaked

what is removed

seekers at range 2+
or seekers at range 9+

thx

[mjwest]

It is the speed allocated at the beginning of the turn that the ship's cloak becomes active. So, if you can time it as perfectly as you show below, you will be Speed 0 when the cloak becomes active (due to allocation), so all drones 2+ hexes away will go away.

Your example is, most likely intentionally, is the perfect ideal. You spend the power on the prior turn, get things started, but then don't actually completely cloak until the beginning of the next turn. That is perfectly acceptable and, if you can make that work, you nailed it.

The opposite extreme is that you select Speed 16 (or 24), then realize you have to cloak on Impulse 1 or Impulse 2. In that case, you have to hope all of your incoming seeking weapons are at range 9+, as you will be counted as being Speed 16 no matter what.
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Federation Commander Answer Guy

[ncrcalamine]

thx

[Grimmshade]

I really like the new rules, as I stated back in the old thread. My (small) group really disliked the old rules, as cloaking wasnt very useful.

What format should a playtest report take? How much info should it include?

I'll try to get in a game next week using these brand new revisions.

[mjwest]

It needs to include:
- What happened, preferably impulse-by-impulse if possible.
- Observations from both sides.
- Acknowledgements of any tactical mistakes made, and how they were perceived to affect the playtest.
- Any other comments you think are necessary.
- Real names of participants and a means of contact (e.g. email).

Multiple runs of the same combat are good, too, if there is any nuance that needs to be exposed.

Finally, remember that the big piece at this point is if allowing Emergncy Deceleration will make the ability to shed seeking weapons too strong. As they now sit, speed prior to Emergency Deceleration is used to determine which seeking weapons are removed from play. The rest seems OK.
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Federation Commander Answer Guy

[Grimmshade]

So should we test both ways? (With Emergency Deceleration)
Or just the new revisions you posted above?

[mjwest]

Both would be great.
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Federation Commander Answer Guy

[Grimmshade]

I got in a game with my wife today to test the new rules (with no emergency deceleration). It took forever to write down impulse by impulse, and I'm still not sure it's enough info.

Anyway, there was unfortunately only 1 instance of cloaking, but it did involve drones at a crucial range, so I'm hoping its helpful. I'll write up the whole report and send it in when I have the time.
Long story short though, the Kzinti New Heavy Cruiser fired 4 drones on Impulse 8. The King Eagle saw this and began cloaking. The King Eagle then slowed to base speed 8 at the start of the next turn. The Kzinti then fired wave 2 on Impulse 1. During the fade out period, the first wave of 4 reached range 4 on the King Eagle, and thus were just inside the safety range and didn't lose tracking on impulse 2 when the KE fully cloaked. Wave 2 was at range 6 then and lost tracking.

Key observations:
1) Neither player felt "ripped off" by how Cloaks worked.
2) Cloaking felt suitably useful, causing the 4 drones that hit while cloaked to do only 50% damage, and causing the other 4 to lose tracking. It would have sucked if none of them lost tracking, as you can't defensive fire while cloaked.
3) Not allowing Emergency Deceleration seems to be fine, and balances play better. It feels like it would make Cloaks slightly overpowered if you could decel and lose seeking weapons whenever you wanted. It felt fun and tactical to see the enemy fire drones in impulse 8 and then begin Cloak to try to avoid the drone waves. The current (newest) rules make Cloaks a tactical option vs the impulse 8, impulse 1 Drone waves, but don't negate drones entirely.

I'll post the full report sometime soon, and also send it to Steve Cole.

PS - The King Eagle Audacia paid the ultimate price for this information.

[m1a1dat]

I hadn't realized all the implications before; i find myself now agreeing with the allocated speed for losing seeking weapons and not counting emergency deceleration. Mostly because there are no acceleration limits (i miss that in FC). It would be pretty powerful to stop on impulse 8 and lose a couple hexes of movement and lose all the seeking weapons, then drop cloak between turns and jump up to speed 32.