Are not the photons of the A-20 carried externally like the B-52 photons?

If so, then you would have the case of replacing externally mounted photons with survey equipment... and I suspect that is not a "good thing" in terms of the game.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 12:54 am: Edit

Jeff,

Don't know why it would be a bad thing. A survey PF with an escorting PF would have more capabilities that a A-20 turned into a EW/survey heavy fighter and 2 escorting F-18s.

I know you tried to modify the A-20 into a phaser fighter, which couldn't happen. Maybe this isn't possible either.

All I am trying to do is suggest something that a GSC or GSX can carry for remote survey work to fill the role a survey PF does.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 10:13 am: Edit

The feds already have a heavy SWAC, and it has scout channels and science functions etc.

By Michael Powers (Mtpowers) on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 10:29 am: Edit

Mike Grafton: Great, then they don't need a new design. Just put a heavy SWAC on a Survey Cruiser.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 10:35 am: Edit

Joseph, just suggesting that there would be a comparative change in substituting 2 photons for (what I assume would be) 2 'packages' of survey equipment.

What that "survey equipment" is, I have no idea... but at best it would rival some of the capacities of special sensors... at worst it would have the cpacity of a survey fighter pod... and in this proposal, the A-20E would have 2 such sets. (I suppose, you could argue that just 1 of the photons would get converted... and the A-20E retains 1 photon and survey set combination?!?)

Either way, the capacity of the 'Survey equipment' needs to be better defined, IMO.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 11:32 am: Edit

(J9.531) Heavy SWACs are limited to CVAs, SCSs, and starbases. Rule would need to be changed.

Jeff,

I just seeking some imput. I am not sure that this idea is worth developing into a proposal yet. The "survey pods" would give the A-20 capabilities similar to an EWF and maybe an MRS, but with a greater science capability. No heavy weapons.

The current SWACs can use booster packs but are subject to double damage. An A-20E with a mega-pack is not and has greater chance to escape.

By John Wyszynski (Starsabre) on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 06:24 pm: Edit

The idea of Survey F-111/A-20/SWAC has a number of problems. To begin with there is not a definition as to what is meant by having "survey" capabilities. The ideas above address the scout channels part of a Survey PF. They don't account for the vast difference in crew size and what this crews provide to the survey abilities (3-4 vs 30-40). Survey PFs also have transporters, tractor beams, and probe launchers. You can't expect them to be added to a fighter.

The Federation have the most capable survey ships in the game. In the late/post GW era, they get an upgrade to the GSX ship. This reflects a different approach to the survey mission. The idea of a survey F-111/A-20/whatever doesn't fit that approach.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 07:09 pm: Edit

John,

A SWAC can perform scout functions, 22, 24, 25, 26, 27, and 29. It counts as 2 labs boxes for functions 25 (ID seeking weapons) and 27 (gathering info).

The survey PF (PFQ) mission is described as scouting ahead of the survey cruiser to determine which of several systems to explore. The PFQ BPV is 110/20. Even a Federation GSX can scout ahead of itself.

The point is developing that capability for the Federation without a PFQ. If you are saying the Federation wouldn't develop something for that mission "The idea of a survey F-111/A-20/whatever doesn't fit that approach", could you explain your reasonings?

I don't care what platform it is on. Perhaps an EWF could be adapted to counts as to lab boxes and be able to do scout functions 25, 27, and 29. It would trade its EW lending and drone control for the survey capability; can carry 2 spaces of probe drones. Call it an F-18ESM.

The EW and drone roles are already well handled by the EWFs, MRSs, and SWACs. So I am not trying to duplicate those missions.

By David Kass (Dkass) on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 07:39 pm: Edit

If anything for the Feds, I'd see a SWAC with fewer combat capabilities (maybe it looses the ability to go wild and lend to its parent ship) in exchange for "survey" (and probably endurance) capabilities that aren't represented in SFB. This would probably be on the E3 (? 2 space) one, with a restriction to being used only on survey cruisers or some such.

I'm basing the loss of functionality on SPP's recent comments on the PFQ in the AAR topic.

Given that it is effectively a poor man's SWAC for SFB purposes, I don't know that it needs to be included (on the other hand, a one paragraph entry and MFC entry isn't that big of a cost for a historical footnote).

On the other hand, the benefit for a PFQ might be due to its speed and endurance, which allow it to go run ahead of the survey crusier and quickly hit a dozen systems to see which the cruiser should next investigate. A mission a shuttle just cannot perform (lack of endurace and lack of speed).

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 07:51 pm: Edit

David,

Your statement "A mission a shuttle just cannot perform (lack of endurace and lack of speed" is right on point. The only way for a SWAC to do the mission is if it's speed was increased. Perhaps a mega-system could be developed for SWAC variant as you suggested. An E3 has a lot more space internally for the crew than a fighter.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, July 27, 2005 - 03:47 pm: Edit

Joseph, did you ever submit the proposal for your E-7 Modular Courier SWAC?

This thread would seem to be similar... and a modular courier utility design would seem to be a nice feature to have on the new Galactic Survey Cruisers (the X tech types post year 202).

I could see a modular courier version fitting in easier than a F-111 variant.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Wednesday, July 27, 2005 - 04:21 pm: Edit

Jeff,

Yes I did, as a version 2. I also made a recon/commando version, which is cheaper. It has 2 NWO boxes, probe launcher, transporter, and tractor. For this unit an exception could be made to allow one special sensor to be installed in one of the option boxes, but no weapons. For self defense: RC has a PH-3-360 and an ADD-12; SWAC has 2 PH-3-360, 4 spaces of drones, and an ADD-12.

BPV for the SWAC version is 124 and the RC is 40. Either a GSC (COV and CVL) or GSX could be modified to carry them. The GVX could carry a SWAC version which would make a nice matchup with the F-111Ms.

I view this unit as a Federation military adaption of the modular courier using interceptor technology. The Federation would have access to the technology.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, July 27, 2005 - 05:44 pm: Edit

Federation does not use Interceptor or PF technology.

If they used it for this, then they used it. But since they did not, they cannot.

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Wednesday, July 27, 2005 - 05:58 pm: Edit

I know you will say "take it up with SVC" but I can't really agree with the statement that the Federation could not have done this. The Federation used warp booster packs and mech-links which were both outgrowths of interceptor technology. Also, the R2 section (I think it's R2; I know it's somewhere) says that the decision to not use PFs was entirely a philosophical one, and had nothing to do with technology. In short, the Federation chose not to use the technology, even though they could have. In a non-combat role they might make a different choice.

That doesn't mean I actually like the idea, of course. I would like the Feds to get something different that they could use instead of "it's just like a PF but, technically, isn't." Perhaps the Federation could develop a variant of the type-IIIXX drone (or whatever its equivalent would be in the time period) that could perform the function of "scout ahead and figure out which planets look interesting." Say the Federation could only do this because of the experience they had with miniaturized electronics for the SWAC, or simply say only the Federation used it because other races used survey PFs instead. This would also be something the Orions might be interested in (for finding locations for new bases), and we know the Federation and Orions have some precedent in this department with probe drones.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Wednesday, July 27, 2005 - 07:48 pm: Edit

SPP,

SVC said this 7-16-2004 "It's not a strike scout. It's a very big swac. Doesn't mean it's approved, but it's not DOA." This is in the X-tech modular SWAC topic.

I don't know what SVC currently thinks of this idea, maybe now it is DOA. I hope not.

Since this is getting into the X2 era call it some other type of Federation technology that was an outgrowth of the Andro war or something, i.e. it is their own parallel tech development to the interceptor/PF tech. I would hate to see this rejected because I have inartfully described the E7 SWAC with incorrect technology terms.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, July 27, 2005 - 07:59 pm: Edit

William T Wilson: When SPP says "But since they did not, they cannot." I'd bet my bottom dollar he means "But since they did not use Interceptors or Fast Patrol Ship in the established written history of the game then they cannot use them because the history says they never did."

There is little doubt that the Federation is technologically capable of using these technologies. More than likely they are more capable that any other race. What with photons they could even be more successfull than any other race. But the history says they never used them and so the game will never have them be used by the Federation.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, July 27, 2005 - 09:43 pm: Edit

Where in the rules does it state that the Federation may not use modular couriers?

R1.54 "MODULAR COURIER (MCR): This ship is "the next thing larger than a heavy shuttle". Tens of thousands of them populate the Alpha sector; they are used by civilians, governments, and corporations for utility transport and other duties. Dozens of minor variations exist through the non Weapons Options."

Was there an addenda item or a correction stating that the Federation may not use Modular Couriers?

By David Kass (Dkass) on Wednesday, July 27, 2005 - 10:06 pm: Edit

But as far as I can tell, modular couriers do not fit in shuttle bays nor on mech links, so there is no way for a survey cruiser to bring one along...

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, July 27, 2005 - 10:13 pm: Edit

David, agreed.

Could the Federation modify a ship to use the MCR variant?

Joseph's idea was to add the thing to a GSC, GVX or GSX after the General War, IIUC.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Wednesday, July 27, 2005 - 10:47 pm: Edit

David,

When I first did this SPP and SVC hadn't, that I was aware of, said that a craft derived from the MRC (or a variant) couldn't be carried on a mech link. This is not an MRC.

The question is really can and does the Federation post GW and probably post Andro war develop a craft that has shields and uses the interceptor rules. This would be the basis for a new SWAC and recon/commando craft. I am not trying to build a PF, interceptor, or mech-link capable Skiff. I am interested in yours and others views. So this is offered as a clarification. The final decision is up to SVC but other views both pro and con are helpful.

Just to make sure, I am not saying SVC has to rule on this right now. I know he is busy. He and SPP can look at when they want to.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, July 28, 2005 - 10:37 am: Edit

Jeff Wile:

Where in the rules does it say that Modular Cutters can:

Be carried on mech links.

Despite PRE-DATING Interceptors ARE BASED on Interceptor Technology?

They are included under the rules for Skiffs which notes that they:

Use the rules for Interceptors.

Cannot use warp packs.

When did I say the Federation cannot use Modular Cutters? I never said that. I said that they cannot use something that is "based on interceptor technology". This was in direct response to Carlson's:

"I view this unit as a Federation military adaption of the modular courier using interceptor technology. The Federation would have access to the technology."

Please do not accuse me of being contrary when I was not.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, July 28, 2005 - 12:52 pm: Edit

Steve Petrick:

I do not recall accusing you of being contrary, either justified or not.

I do admit that I asked the question, as it seemed to me, to address the underlying issue.

Namely, could the Federation use a unit that is "useable by all races" (ie rule R1.0 units)?

Your posts would seem to disqualify Federation Star Fleet use of the MCR (rule 1.54).

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, July 28, 2005 - 01:07 pm: Edit

Jeff Wile:

I do not see what post I made that disqualifies the Federation from using MCRs.

Mayhap we have a communication problem here?

The only things I have noted is that the Federation does not use Interceptor technology.

MCRs (and Skiffs for that matter) are not Interceptor technology. They pre-date interceptors by thirty years. While they use the Interceptor rules set, and have some obvious similarities as a result, they are not, themselves, interceptors.

The whole gist of my response was simply that you (generic use, not "you" specifically) cannot change the rules of the Federation and apply "interceptor technology" to a Federation unit.

The issue of using Skiffs (and Modular Cutters) on mech links has been addressed (not that Jeff Wile brought it up again), and the answer is "no", so designing a special Survey Modular Cutter to be carried on Mech Links is DOA in any case.

Frankly, trying to design anything in the Skiff/Cutter range to be carried on mech links by the Federation is going to be a non-starter as the background says that the Federation did not use PFs, and Skiffs and Cutters are not going to be allowed to become a back door into Federation PFs.

Further, a "Survey Fighter", even one based on an F-111 is just not going to fly. Fighters, even a heavy fighter like the F-111, simply are not PFs. The closest the Federation is going to come to this job is to use a SWAC shuttle, and a SWAC shuttle is just too rare and difficult to build (which makes it rare) to be used that way.

The Federation is just going to have to live with the fact that it built more Survey SHIPS than the other races and not get the bells and whistles that other races added to their relatively small number.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Thursday, July 28, 2005 - 02:43 pm: Edit

SPP,

When did the change occur that now makes the E7 SWAC I proposed DOA?

I am addressing concerns I have that with your above post. I am not trying to put words in your mouth or be insulting or rude. I have a lot of respect for you and SVC. There are two craft in question a new SWAC and some form of new survey craft with the survey craft being a lesser developed form of the new SWAC.

You allude to a SWAC being the closest the Feds will get to this job (surveys), but it appears any further development is blocked. The point or issue I am concerned about (not whether my proposed E7 is accepted) is this: An X-MRS is available an X-SWAC would appear to be a next step (X2 Era?) in development. The only platform now is a two space shuttle. The variant of this idea is there some new X shuttle between an X-MRS and an NX SWAC?

A SWAC isn't a PF either but a PFQ is as stated above a "poor mans" SWAC. I presume it is easier to build a PFQ than a SWAC. I would expect the Federation would realize this and do some thing to develop the next generation of SWACs.

I guess I don't understand your line of thinking that the Federation wouldn't during the X2 era build a unit like I have proposed or something else. In a sense I get the impression from your above post the development pathway is blocked i.e. a modular cutter can't do that or it is a backdoor PF, or there isn’t any technology beside "interceptor technology" that would allow such construction. It strikes me as applying a GW paradigm to going forward to X2 and trade wars, the history don’t allow it; “it” representing technological progress beyond the X-MRS and NX-SWAC.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, July 28, 2005 - 03:56 pm: Edit

Joseph Carlson:

When did what change occur? When did I say anything about X2? Please do not take things further than the current direction. I have not said one word about X-Technology. There is a problem that X-Technology supposedly (according to current dicta, but that one is still in flux depending on what SVC decides when X2 is done) rendered PFs obsolete and basically no one used them anymore (a few found defending backwater planets being raided by Orions not in good enough standing to have an X ship of their own, etc.).

The E2 SWAC exists. The E3 SWAC exists. But both are EXTREMELY LIMITED. You cannot get one for a non Carrier and there was carefully crafted a into the game background a mention that one (1) GSC operating in CVL mode acquired one at one point.

The existing background makes it unlikely that SWACS were given any wider deployment, due to cost and production bottlenecks.

I doubt that that will be overcome for Federation X-ships (i.e., I do not think second generation Federation X-ships will use SWACS, or even X-SWACS, rather than X-MRS shuttles).

SWACS are just inherently too difficult to produce for mass production for use by regular combat ships, which the X-2 ships are (by current dicta). That does not mean you are not going to convince SVC that "The Federation Must Have The X-SWACS Or The Universe Will End", but right now a Survey Shuttle or Suvery Fighter that comes even close to the capabilities of a Survey PF seems unlikely simply because the Survey PF through sheer size is going to have greater capabilities in that role.