>Disassemble a MRC (it's PF size remember), slip
>it into the 10! Cargo on a GSC, go to area,
>assemble it, and let it go until you leave the
>area.

An interceptor analog modular cutter does not have the availability of a survey PF.

Like wise a triple or quadruple sized science shuttle still has the same avilability problem and cannot go places that require the shields that a survey PF allows.

The mission of "quick look with a (relatively) expendable crewed small craft" requires something with shields that a Fed survey ship can carry.

The Feds did not go the interceptor/PF route. They would choose something else, likely several something elses, to do the same mission.

A shielded two space science shuttle is the easiest in my mind. The trick is how to allow the shield without developing a whole new class of fighter design for the General War.

A Federation only Type-H drone with a probe module, a shield module that cannot work with weapons packages, and the endurance of a type III drone is another option in this regard.

J3 should also have the "PF Monster response package" for Federation bombers and heavy fighters taking the PF role in their colonial defenses. This toy should be Federation only as everyone else uses PFs for the mission.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 04:01 pm: Edit

My take on the MRC cutter: It doesn't use interceptor technology, just the rules. The engines are each three box not two and the MC is 1/4 not 1/6. If the Federation adapted it to a miltary role it would non-PF/Int technology to do so. The federation uses tractor mech-links already so taking that one step further to a internal bay may not violate the Feds didn't deploy PFs and interceptors.

There is a vague line between what is allowed for fighters/shuttles and what can't fit or is X-tech. I don't know where a shielded science shuttle is in relation to that line; it isn't on the auto reject list. What we are asking is a two space shuttle to carry similar survey equipement to that of a E2A SWAC, power to generate a 360 degree shield, and a higher speed (12 to 15). Even with advances in non-X tech I have trouble seeing this as possible. I like the idea just don't see how it is possible at this point.

By Michael Powers (Mtpowers) on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 04:20 pm: Edit

If the MRC doesn't use interceptor/PF technology, then it can't use mech-links. Those are interceptor/PF technology. The Feds used them for heavy fighters, but not until other races were using them for PFs.

Something that I just thought: I'm not knocking the idea of a big starship carrying a smaller, interstellar-capable craft inside it, dismantled for storage. I just don't think it fits into the SFU.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 05:21 pm: Edit

Michael,

The whole question on a survey/SWAC cutter derived from an MCR is still just a proposal. It Isn't an MCR anymore. The symatical dance on whether it can or can't use mech-link tech is an issue SVC will have to decide.

The cutter I have suggested could be built as a survey/SWAC or a cargo/troup transport. As a cargo cutter, assuming the mech-link issue allows it, could be caried by freighters as an addition to HTS shuttles.

By David Kass (Dkass) on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 04:49 pm: Edit

I just don't see the need for the Feds to have a survey PF replacement. Instead they have the best survey cruiser in the game.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 06:06 pm: Edit

Also, don't the Feds have the only X-tech Survey Cruiser? You're talking about the X-tech era here, so the Survey PFs may be necessary to bring the other races up to about the level that the Feds are at anyway.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 08:20 pm: Edit

David and Alan,

I think there is a point missing that maybe I haven't made clear in this post. The Federation GSCs by the end of GW are like the CAR+ ships, worn out or destroyed; so it is past tense.

Being able to expand the coverage capabilities of what remains of the survey fleet or not risk the ship looking at something that might be hazardous is a good capablity to have.

The GSX ships are for the most hazardous missions. So why wouldn't want such a unit? I guess I don't understand either of your perspectives on this.

My concern is the game seems to be stuck in a GW paradigm; future needs are being evaluated on GW circumstances and restrictions. It seems to be very difficult to make any head way on something new. I still learning about the game, so both my idea and my concern may be incorrct/invalid

By Michael Powers (Mtpowers) on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 08:56 pm: Edit

Once the GW is over, there's no need for quick and cheap PF-type ships. Better to spend more money and get a starship that's capable of independent operations, has far more ability, and (barring destruction by combat or misfortune) will last forever. (Remember that some of the Fed CLs wound up serving for almost 200 years!) The idea behind Survey PFs was that a race might not have time for the cruiser to leisurely make its way from system to system; better to send out a few small ships and do a quick "is there dilithium here?" scan. Once the War is over, that urgency is not present.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 11:02 am: Edit

Joseph Carlson,

I think you're wrong about CA and GSC cruisers all being "worn out". If you check F&E you'll see that these hulls were being built as new construction right up to the end of the war. The number of new builds was sharply reduced as the NCA became more prevalent (in F&E it has the same combat value as the CA but is cheaper to build), but there would still be a number of recently built CA and GSC hulls available in the time period you're talking about.

My perspective, as you put it, is that since the Feds already have X-tech Survey Cruisers, they don't really need anything analogous to a Survey PF. A GSX is already superior to a D7E with a Survey PF.

A second part of my perspective on this is that I think it makes for a more interesting game if every race doesn't have everything that some other race has. Every race needs certain capabilities, but they might choose different methods of achieving those capabilities. And there are some core "unit types" such as a cruiser or destroyer that every race probably does need. But I don't see this as being one of them.

just my .02 quatloos worth.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 03:07 pm: Edit

Alan,

I appreciate your response and in the spirit of continuing the conversation I offer the following.

F&E isn't limited to the historical number of ships that exist in SFB; "worn out" is something that is tracked in F&E, destroyed is. SFB campaigns aren't limited by historical ship numbers either.

I am not wrong; we are looking at things from a different perspective. If we look at (R0.200) The 20 years following Y185 races conventional non-X-ships, including new construction formed the bulk of most fleets. The draft XP-refit has been added since that section was written. I am looking at this more from a historical point not what you can build in F&E or a campaign.

So some GW ships survived and continued on. New construction was added. I don’t know what these new constructions ships are: existing designs and/or new designs. So the number of GSCs post GW is a question that they may need to be replaced, rebuilt (refit) or augmented isn't.

There are only five GSX ships per (R2.204). The mere existence of an X-survey cruiser doesn't in and of itself invalidate the mission (need) for some small-shielded survey/SWAC unit. The need is, as I understand is defined more by a mission or missions. I see having the “best survey cruiser” from the same perspective. The small-shielded survey/SWAC unit is performing a remote mission. The point is the ship and the small unit can perform more surveys than either by itself. The other point I will repeat; the small unit can go on a recon of some place hazardous so the survey cruiser isn’t at risk.

SWACs don't work well with F-111s and can't keep up with mega-fighters. An MCR derived SWAC can and adds to the combat capabilities of such a squadron. Others and I have mentioned the uses of such a unit (or other types) from a survey cruiser.

There aren't any X-carriers besides the GVX and as I understand there won't be anymore. So this survey/SWAC unit will need to be able to deploy from non-X ships.

I originally though of this idea for X2, but that is to far out in the future and little is understood about that possible module.

I hope the 20+ years after the GW when new ships are built will be developed in modules like J3 and X1R.

By David Kass (Dkass) on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 05:31 pm: Edit

Remember that post-GW most economies are shattered. 5 GSX is about half the Fed survey fleet (I can't recall the maximum they have). Fed CA shipyards are still quite functional and capable of building standard GSC if the Feds decide they need them (they're building CX). I suspect instead they'll build the GSX for the replacements they need (implying they only needed/could afford 5 GSX). My impressions is that non-war-construction ships have lifetimes of 30 to 50 years (and can undoubtably extended by major overhauls). Many of GSCs were relatively new before the start of the GW so they still have decades of lifetime left at the end of the GW.

One of the problems I see is that almost any of the ideas proposed should be available to everyone (since the ones based on SWAC shuttles seem dead). At this point we haven't solved the claimed "problem." Since everyone else will have this new system and survey PFs.

While specific F&E games are not authoritive on ship counts, it is authoritive on production schedules as well as the various scenario set up rules (which effectively give OOB at various times)--although both are somewhat mutable as new material is added to F&E.

The post-GW period is fairly well fleshed in if one looks at the civil wars, ISC and Andro war information (the main events of this period). There are a number of new ship designed introduced. Also, rembmer that since this wasn't a period of total war one would expect technology and design to slow down compared to the pace of the GW (not to mention the exhausted economies also slowing down research, R&D always seems to be the first thing to go). XP is perhaps the one missing piece (although I had always hoped it would not occur).

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 06:31 pm: Edit

Probably all the ideas around some type of remote survey vehicle (drone, shuttle, cutter) are dead.

The other races already have cargo, commando, and survey PFs. The MCR derived unit idea doesn't represent something the other races would want. A shielded two space shuttle on the other hand does and some does a "survey" drone.

The timeline post GW is in place. There are still some questions about what is produced in the form of new construction besides X ships. It would seem though that it is cheaper to build an XP ship than do an XP refit, but I don't know how that would be reflected in the game.

J2 seems to cover the later part of the GW. J3 could cover post GW to the trade wars/X2. The question what is after the E2/E3? Some ships that have scout sensors and attrition units (fighters and PFs) can operate as a single ship carrier. My thought is the Andro war will see scout carriers, DCSs, ACSs, and PFTs operating alone tracing the RTN. A Fed ship could use a SWAC that can operate with the F-111s and mega-fighter versions.

The economies are exhausted so the fleets will use what they have and only augment with new designs if needed. So the "needed" question comes back. Is some form of enhanced SWAC be needed? Military needs will drive the develop more than survey wants.

By Brian Wesley Adams (Bwaomega) on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 03:48 am: Edit

The one major problem that I have with any sort of shielded shuttle idea is that a shuttle just isn't big enough, and doesn't have enough power available to be any sort of substitute for a survey PF. Please open up your copy of CL30. The labs on the survey PF take up the space of the Auxilliary Reactors. And have sensors powered by whatever they need from the PF's engines. No shuttle can match that.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 04:52 pm: Edit

Under (J2.212) an Admin shuttle counts as one lab box. Under (J8.31) an MRS counts as two lab boxes. An E2 and E3 SWAC also counts as two lab boxes. Labs are part of the functioning of these shuttles. A sensor pod also counts as one lab box

The scout functions of the SWAC are part of it's electronic equipment (part of the structure) and ceases working if the SWAC is crippled. The SWAC lent EW support of 2xECM + 2xECCM, + 2xswing points doesn't cost 6 points of energy, but carrier generated lent EW points do cost.

Under (K3.41) interceptors don't expend any energy keeping their shields at full strength.

So I don't think size or energy is barrier to generating a shield. A PF is as fast as a starship (K0.21). The ability to move faster than speed 31 is a barrier to a shuttle. The ability to generate some level of SWAC capability combined with a shield is probably not possible. SWAC equipment can't be installed on ships, which I would presume includes PFs and interceptors.

A survey PF is the smallest unit to combine SWAC-like capabilities, shields and strategic speed. I don't think I have proposed being able to combine those three aspects on a two-space shuttle.

By Brian Wesley Adams (Bwaomega) on Friday, August 19, 2005 - 03:25 am: Edit

While the rules do not explicitly state this, it would be my guess that the primary function of the shuttle in a J2.212 situation is actually providing additional sensors for gathering data, allowing the ship to work more effectively. It would be possible (barely) to outfit an admin shuttle with the equivalent of a lab space in gear, but it's ability to operate long term would be greatly diminished. I'm not sure that you proposed anything like this, but it is where the 'shielded shuttle' discussion started, at an attempt to come up with a Federation answer to not having Survey PFs. One or more authors seem to have intended to try to end-run around the 'no Fed PFs' dictum through the Survey PF situation, claiming that the Feds were disadvantaged by this lack. While I PERSONALLY do not have a problem with the Feds operating Survey PFs, the powers that be have said this is not possible in the 'historical' SFU, and I can think of a number of reasons (in-game based, not just designer fiat) why this would be the case. I also don't think that the Feds actually are disadvantaged by this lack.

The 'shielded shuttle' started from the observation that 'the only difference between a survey PF's capabilities and a shuttle's is the ability to operate in hazardous terrains' (paraphrased, since I don't have the exact quote in front of me). My point is that the capabilities are in fact quite different with regards to survey-type operations at a distance from the mother ship. If you want to propose/develop shielded shuttles for some other reason, then go ahead, but as a remote survey tool, I just don't see it working.

By Gary Plana (Garyplana) on Friday, August 19, 2005 - 06:35 am: Edit

I could see armor on a shuttle, not to exceed 50% of the "normal" damage rating. But the weight of the armor would cut the speed in half.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, August 19, 2005 - 12:24 pm: Edit

Brian Adam's comment about an "end-run around the 'no Fed PFs' dictum" reminded me of another thought I had about this topic. My concern isn't so much a PF end run as it is opening the floodgates for X-tech fighters. Currently only the Hydrans have X-tech fighters and for reasons of unique racial capabilities I would just as soon that it stayed that way. But (and this obviously depends on what the rules for shielded shuttlecraft actually say) if it is possible to shield a shuttlecraft it becomes much harder to justify the prohibition on X-fighters for the non-Hydran races. Even if only two-space shuttles can be shielded, this still makes it hard to justify prohibiting shielded Heavy Fighters.

The only way I can see this working is if shuttlecraft shields are so restricted in some way that they simply aren't useful for attrition units. I offer the following possibility for consideration.

By Y196 (or pick whatever year you think is appropriate) it becomes possible to put a limited form of shielding on two-space (or larger) shuttlecraft. But the shielding only stops diffuse "environmental" effects. It is useless against the far more concentrated and intense damage from weapons. The shielding doesn't affect the shuttle's performance but it does add significantly to the EPV.

A rule like this would allow exploratory shuttles to operate in nebulae and other terrain types (radiation zones? heat zones? I don't currently have my books handy) where shuttles are currently restricted. It could also alllow the use of shielded Heavy Transport Shuttles or Heavy Freight Shuttles at, for example, an asteroid mining colony inside said terrain. The extra EPV for the shielding would be easily justifiable because the mining operations would be so much more efficient. But since this shielding is useless in combat but makes the fighters a lot more expensive, it wouldn't open provide justification for a bunch of X-fighters. At most you might see a very small number of shielded Heavy Fighters or Bombers based at our hypothetical "mining colony in a nebula" to defend it. But this would be a very specialized use and the EPV adjustment might mean everyone but the Federation would use PFs (which can already function in a nebula anyway) instead.

Thoughts?

By Brian Wesley Adams (Bwaomega) on Friday, August 19, 2005 - 07:38 pm: Edit

Again, I don't see shuttles working as a long-range exploratory/survey vehicle. At best, they might provide another set of 'eyes' for a nearby (on SFB map, or just off-map) ship or base. I agree that the Hydrans should maintain an edge on their seeking weapons (fighters), over the rest of the races. And I could see a use for shielded shuttles, and a need for them for operations in hazardous terrain. I would suggest that they be of very limited use in the vicinity of black holes and pulsars (can't stop the radiation bursts?)

By David Kass (Dkass) on Friday, August 19, 2005 - 07:57 pm: Edit

Instead of looking at shielded shuttles specificially, I'd suggest looking at alternative mega-packs.

This would give each fighter a range of megapack types instead of just one and the player could buy the one they wanted for each fighter. One of these could be a mega pack that provided a 1 or 2 point 360 shield instead of extra weapons/rails. This obviously needs more details and playtesting for balance.

Another pack might increase the dogfight rating (instead of decreasing it), at other costs...

The down side of this type of a system is that it might allow players to tailor their forces too much for a specific battle (as opposed to a real carrier captain who would choose the existing megapack for its versatility).

This isn't designed to solve (or even work for) the "Fed survey issue" (but then I don't think there is a Fed survey issue).

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Friday, August 19, 2005 - 07:58 pm: Edit

Alan,

Per (K3.1) the interceptor was the next evoluntionary step past heavy fighters. It is treated like a PF and has a similar strategic speed but shorter range. It appears this where shields seem to be added to attrition units.

Would what you are proposing be considered a shield under (D3.0)? A shuttle would have to have a minimum shield for purposes of (P6.3) Nebulae, or it would be destroyed. If it is a shield why wouldn't it be considered adding PF tech to a fighter/bomber?

Perhaps the "limited form of shielding" could be considered functing as a minimal shield for (P6.0) (in a similar fashion as an Admin shuttle is considers as a lab box), but it is not a shield under (D3.0). BPV: HFS is 10, cargo 75 pts; VFS is 13, cargo 100pts; HTS is 7.

An MCR can use the two NWO boxes as 25 point cargo boxes and carry a third on it mech link (R1.54). This or a cargo PF would work for the mining colony. YIS for an MCR is Y130. I don't consider an MCR to be using PF technology, PFs appear Y177-178. BPV is 15/11.

Earlier I proposed an X-GSS two space survey shuttle. This unit could be just as easily an A-GSS. The "limited form of shielding" would work for this unit also. Shuttles can't match PFs for speed and range though so a new type of survey shuttle couldn't do similar remote survey missions. Only a MCR derived unit can match PFs for this type of utility work.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Friday, August 19, 2005 - 10:29 pm: Edit

David,

You figured out on your own what my proposal (ASIF) is about. A different type of system (mega-pack) that increases the damage points.

Everyone:
There are three separate ideas being discussed/suggested.

1. "Limited form of shielding" as a minimal shield.
2. A different type of mega-pack.
3. Some type of MCR derived military cutter.

Fighters and heavy fighters could use “Limited form of shielding” with a different type of mega-pack.

Shuttles and bombers with or without standard mega-packs could use “Limited form of shielding”.

"Limited form of shielding" functions like a shield until the shuttle is crippled. It then takes damage like a regular shuttle. It is not considered a shield under (D3.0).

Suggested terrain effects for shuttles with "limited form of shielding"

(P5.0) Variable Pulsar follows the rules in (P5.2), the limited shields doesn't change damage resolution.

(P6.0) Nebulae; If a shuttle is crippled it is automatically destroyed per (P6.41).

(P10.0) Heat Zones; A shuttle takes damage per (10.3) only if crippled.

(P12.0) Novas and Super Novas; Follow rules for the type of terrain listed in the table in (P12.5).

Other types of mega-packs: I posted one idea I would like to see other ideas.

The MCR cutter has been discussed already. I don't anything else to add.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, August 19, 2005 - 11:56 pm: Edit

Regarding the hypothetical range for some sort of "Survey Shuttle", let me quote from G4e PD.

"Once you leave a solar system, a shuttle becomes much more inconvenient. While shuttles and yachts can be equipped with a "long range" pod to provide the fuel and supplies for such a trip, travelling to other star systems by shuttle/yacht takes a lot more time. A trip from Sol to Alpha Centauri at Warp 2.5 will take approximately 36 hours; traveling from Earth to Vulcan will take about 6 days. While these times don't seem completely unreasonable (on 21st century Earth, trips by automobile of such durations were common for things like annual business trips or vacations) one thing to remember is that you can't go outside or take a break. A shuttle or even a yacht will seem VERY small after a few days." - page 162.

So it's pretty clearly possible to have a "Survey Shuttle" capable of "scouting ahead" like a Survey PF, or exploring one star system while the Survey Cruiser is exploring a different one. Whether it's a good idea is another matter entirely.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 12:43 am: Edit

Regarding new types of mega-packs for fighters and bombers, I'm still not sure I want to see one that adds "real" shields. A lot would depend on exactly how the rules for them worked. But for me at least the default position would be "no" with burden of proof on the proposer to show that it isn't a bad idea.

Regarding mega-packs with different weapon options, I've got some ideas. Of course, they may not be good ideas...

For drone users:

A mega-pack that adds a Type-IV rather than two Type-Is. Probably restricted to Heavy Fighters and Bombers only.

A mega-pack that adds four Type-VIs rather than two Type-Is. These can be RALADS.

For plasma users:

A mega-pack that adds a plasma-F instead of two plasma-D. Probably restricted to Heavy Fighters or Bombers only.

A mega-pack that adds only one plasma-D instead of two, but allows the fighter to bolt that (and only that) torpedo. Definately restricted to Heavy Fighters or Bombers only - and it still may be too much.

For Hydrans and Tholians:

A mega-pack that adds two ph-3s rather than one. Definately restricted to Heavy Fighters and Bombers only.

For everyone:

The option to use the (standard) phaser-3 mega-pack on any fighter, not just "phaser-only" fighters.

A mega-pack that carries an EW pod or extra chaff instead of a weapon. Intended for use by "standard" fighters since there are already rules for mega-packs on EW fighters.

A "long range strike" pack that doubles the speed and increases the strategic range but doesn't add either weapons or hit points. No one would buy this in a BPV-based S8-type scenario, since it's inferior to already existing packs. But it might be present in a designed scenario, and might be valuable in an SFB campaign if it gave longer strategic range than the standard packs.

None of these have been play-tested. They are merely some ideas that have come to mind.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 01:26 am: Edit

A mega-pack that can carry and lay a small mine. The mine would have to come from the ship's regular stores, just like a mine carried in the F-111's bay. I have my doubts about this one because it takes one of the capabilities that makes the F-111 special, and gives it to everybody. I wanted to throw the idea out for comments, but I'm leaning against it being a good idea.

For the Tholians:

A mega-pack with a snare. The snare fires into the same hex the fighter is in but otherwise acts like a standard snare in all ways except it can't be used as a web generator. I'm also leaning against this one being a good idea. I think it is likely to be too powerful, at least in some circumstances. Less radical and perhaps more workable would be a...

"Super Spinner" mega-pack. A problem with web spinners is that they can only act as anchors for zero-strength web. They have to pass their anchor duties off to a Tholian ship/PF/asteroid/etc. before the web can be powered. This mega-pack would allow a Tholian fighter to act as an anchor point for powered web. The "Super Spinner" still couldn't lay web on its own, or add reinforcing energy.

For the Hydrans:

A Mega-pack that improves the range of the fusion beams so that they can fire to 10 hexes using only one charge. Doesn't add any weapons charges, however. Definately restricted to Heavy Fighters/Bombers only, and still may be too good. Like the other ideas in this specific posting, I wanted to throw this out but suspect it may be a bad idea.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 01:30 am: Edit

I just realized I have been spelling "Definitely" incorrectly throughout my last two posts.

Definately uhh... Definitely time for me to get some sleep...