Perhaps I'm being dense here, but why is it that Orions are trying to use Probes for extra power when Orion ships don't carry probes?

As for the idea itself... basically you want to turn the Probe box on a SSD into a 2 point AWR battery?⁴²

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, July 15, 2004 - 09:53 am: Edit

I'm looking at the Basic Set SSD book, page 47, Orion Raider Cruiser.

Nope, no probe, but it does have 5 probes in the ammunition track on the left side of the SSD...possibly a error?!?

seems odd that an ORION would carry spare probes without the ability to use them....

By Robert Cole (Zathras) on Thursday, July 15, 2004 - 09:59 am: Edit

No Orion ship carries probes as standard equipent (I just checked everything). The Probe ammo on the CR is, indeed, an error (in fact, it's in the errata file).

Orions can use Probes in thier option mounts... but why would they want to? ⁴²

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, July 15, 2004 - 10:44 am: Edit

Just what SFB needs, a way to give the Orions the ability to have more power availabel for Enargy allocation!

now, if probes could be modified OUTSIDE of a probe launcher...and since Orions don't have (normally) probes or launchers...you suddenly have non orions with the ability to store for next turn 10 points of power...great for those times when you want to overrun your opponent...

This could be devastating to the enemies of the Federation...picture a Fed CA with 5 Probes set to release 10 points power just when he wants to hold 4 photons with full overloads(requires 8 energy points to hold 4 phtns) move at speed 31 (requires 31 energy points to do) pay for ls (1 point) Fire Control (1 point) shields (2 points) ECM 6 points (possibly ECCM depending on if he is worried about photons actually hitting the target) and 2 points for tract beams (for drone defense and what not) sofar that adds up to 50 points of power on a Fed CA capable of generating 30 points of warp power, 4 points of impulse power and 2 points of APR and 4 points of battery power. the 10 points from MJC's reactor probes would give the fed CA the ability to do it successfully.

I am not however, convinced that this would be a good thing for SFB.

By Matthew J. Francois (Francois42) on Thursday, July 15, 2004 - 02:39 pm: Edit

Yeah, Jeff said it:

If the Orions have these, why hasn't the Federation conquered the Cluster, and the rest of the Alpha Sector with it?

-Francois42
Prime Directive Online

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, July 15, 2004 - 04:49 pm: Edit

I realize that SFB license does not have next Generation rights...but this is the closest thing yet to allowing the infamous "Pickard Manuver" the option to make a speed run up to an enemy to "point blank range" and deliver a decisive Alpha Strike of Phasers and photons.

By Ben Moldovan (Shadow1) on Thursday, July 15, 2004 - 10:09 pm: Edit

Actually, I think the Picard Manuever is closer to instantaneous. More like a DisDev. First you're here, BAM, now you're there.

By Ben Moldovan (Shadow1) on Thursday, July 15, 2004 - 10:11 pm: Edit

Er, actually, forget the DisDev. You're just using non-tactical warp for a second or so.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, July 15, 2004 - 11:15 pm: Edit

Firstly my thinking was it would give the Orions something that they would burn out other than a warp enginbe box; a probe ( not probe launcher ) for those times when they want a little more energy but don't want to loose engine boxes.


Secondly, the reactor probe floods energy back into the ship via the probe launcher, a Fed could buy five reactor probes but could one use them one at a time for exactly the same reason that a Fed couldn't launch five anti-matter bombs during an over run.


Thirdly the power released is between 2 and 4 points of AWR power as the arming power was between 1 and 2 points of power over two turns.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, December 20, 2004 - 02:59 am: Edit

G5.___.0 Fire Control Aid.
In Y148 A Legendary Engineer and a Legendary Science offcier aboard a Federation starship postulated that since the electromagnetic artificial signatures of ECM generated by a vessel were electromagntic false signatures and not actual metal hulls; a burst of electromagnetic radiation fired through the feild of artifical projections could be detected passing through the projections but would bounce of the hull of an actual ship allowing the vessel to determine which target was indeed the real vessel.
..... The system was developed in Y156 due mostly to the advent of the Klingon ECM drones. However because the probe need to place the target ship in a direct line between itself and the launch vessel it could not be fired without the probe passing through the hull of the target vessel first meaning the system would have to be performed with pairs of vessels or perhaps larger groups.
..... Later in Y173 Probes that could curve their trajectory around the hull of a ship ( which is only a distance at most of several hundred metres ) were developed.

G5.___.1 ARMING
G5.___.11 Probes can be armed for the purpose of being used to triangulate which ECM signatures are false and which arn't. The arming takes two turns. The first turn requires 2 points of warp power ( to cause the probe to explode ) and the second turn requires one point of power ( from any soarse ). The Probe can be held for 1 point of power if armed this way.

G5.___.12 PREPARATION
b{G5.___.121 The vessels must align their coarses such that when the probe detonates the second ( or indeed any and all of the "non-launch" vessels ) vessel will be in a direct line from the probe to the second vessel with the target vessel being in that line.
..... In order to acheive that alingment the launching vessel and the second vessel ( and possibly others ) must run in straight lines for four impulses. Neither vessel may sideslip, turn, HET, TAC or perform EM and neither vessel may make an unplanned speed change ( even if under D22 ).


G5.___.2 EFFECT
G5.___.21 On the impulse of fire, the probe is launched during the probe launch step of the impulse and explodes there and then. The explosion shall inflict no damage and the target vessel shall be the only vessel affected by the effects of the probe.
G5.___.22 During the direct fire step of the impulse in which the probe was launched, 5 points of ECM that are generated by the vessel, loaned to the vessel via scout channel ( or from a carrier to a fighter or from an MRS shuttle or SAWC ) or received from an ECM drone are ignored. This can be considered 5 points of ECCM on that impulse but it can not be used to reduce the effects of natural ECM such as that generated by Nebulae or Asteroids or small target modifiers or even erratic manouvers ( Asteroids have solid matter which which to absorb the radiation from the explosion and nebulae tends to muffle all forms of tranmission ).
G5.___.23 Only the alinged non-launching vessel(s) may take advatage of this effect. One only on the impulse of fire.

G5.___.3 Technological development.
G5.___.31 In the year 173 probes with the ability to change there coarse by about a kilometre were developed. These probes cost 1 BPV to upgrade regular drones to this type and the player is not required to buy all the probes as this type.
G5.___.32 The vessels could put the firing ship in a straight line that passes through the explosion, the target vessel and launch ship and thus the launch ship could also gain from the benefit.
G5.___.33 The launch vessel no longer had to align it'self with other vessels in it's squadron and could fire without any kind of turn restriction however in order to aling with other vessels and allow those vessel to gain from the one probe launch, the vessel would still have to aling it'self with the others.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, December 20, 2004 - 03:01 am: Edit

Basically my thinking is that a WW-probe will never come to pass, but perhaps an "anti-ECM-drone" probe, might.

By Troy J. Latta (Saaur) on Monday, December 20, 2004 - 08:57 am: Edit

5 ECCM is a bit much, I think. 3 would be closer.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, December 20, 2004 - 07:10 pm: Edit

Actually I would think it would eliminate all projected artifical images but that wuld be increadibly strong and basically blow the whole purpose of scouts.
Plus there should be a counter to the duration of ECM effects of other systems. An ECM drone gives 3, a WW gives 6 and these probes eliminate 5 but only on the impulse it's launched...so I think 5 is quite believible.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, September 04, 2005 - 05:17 am: Edit

G5.___.0 Pan Dimensional Vortex Generator
G5.___.01 The probe can be armed and fired such that it collapes in on itself to form a pan-dimensional vortex that can be detected via the sensors and scanners of a starship.
The vortex is between the size of a golfball and the size of a basketball and can be detected with varrying degrees of success by ships in the vancity and by detecting the vortecx; which is known to be stationary, the ships can avoid being draw in random direction via the effects of a Nebula.

G5.___.1 Arming
G5.___.11 The probe is readied as with 1 point of power from any soarce on the first turn of arming and 2 points of warp power on the second turn of arming.
G5.___.12 The probe can not be converting from a different kind of arming and can not be held.

G5.___.2 Use
G5.___.21 In a nebula, a ship may launch the probe under the probe launch conditions for launch in a nebula and then all surrounding, ships shall roll to gain navigation access ( friend or foe ) on one (or more) of the impulses specified under P6.5 and if successful then the effects of P6.5 shall not be applied.
G5.___.22 The vortex shall remain present for 16 impulses after launch and each ship may make a roll when it is called to suffer random movement and if successsful shall not suffer any random movement.
G5.___.23 The following table is used to determine if one avoids the random movement of a nebula and is determined by the range to the hex to which the probe was launched. Several other factors apply.
If a ship is not allied to the ship that launched the probe ( can not accept seeking weapons ) then such a ship will always have a +2 die roll modifier.
If a ship other than the launch ship attempts to be guided by the pan-dimensional vortex but this is first time that (other) ship has launched a probe armed as a pan dimensional vortex generator during this scenario, then the (nonlaunch) ship suffers a +1 die roll modifier ( this is to reflect that ships have their own warp engine ideosyncracies that might not be known by other ships in the fleet ). This applies to freind and foe alike.

Range	0-1	2	3-4	5-8	9-16	17-32
Navigation Aided	1-6	1-5	1-4	1-3	1-2	1

By Nikolaus Athas (Nycathis) on Sunday, September 04, 2005 - 07:16 pm: Edit

I dont have my rules handy so Im not sure what the effects of p6.5 are.

If its a way to avoid the ECM penalty in a nebula though then I say nope - not a chance. If its just to avoid random movement then its an interesting idea.

I would suggest though that you apply the KISS rule and get rid of the various clauses and tables.

Simply say it works on 1-5 on a d6 but apply natural ECM and small target ECM bonus - that way its not a 1 point free lunch for the rest of the fleet - every ship that wishes to take advantage of it needs to be actively using its sensors (to the tune of upto 6 ECCM.

Even then this may be too easy - just thinking off the top of my head.

But at least this way it is using rules already in effect that are understood, rather than have yet another thing that needs to be looked up.

Im curious: why not just call it a navigational beacon?

Pan Dimensional Vortex sounds like something that should be a heavy or special weapon for some extra galactic race...

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, September 04, 2005 - 11:23 pm: Edit

Why?

Because I didn't want to invent rules wherein the enemy will want to know how they can shoot the beacon and that falls into the "why can't I shoot an antimatter bomb" trap.


And yes it's just the random movement. Both facing and hex reposition.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 10:34 am: Edit

Given how rare combat in a Nebula is I do not really see this adding anything to the game. The whole point of nebular combat is what nebular effects are. If you do not want to fight under nebular effects, then do not play in a nebula.

Yes, I know he is only trying to subvert the random movement, and only for a half turn. But he is also handing advantages to ships that have probe launchers (admittedly a large majority of them) while leaving a number of other ships penalized (not just Klingon G2s, E3s, and E4s, but virtually every Orion ship . . . and suggesting that the Orions simply use one of their option mounts for a probe launcher is a non-starter).

Simply from those standpoints, I am not in favor of this, but note that I am not saying "no", just that I am not in favor of it.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 09:52 pm: Edit

I'ld just like to mention that it's actually 16 impulse every other turn, if one throws out a continuos string of probes in this manner.

But since it penalises Orions heavily, maybe it was not such a good idea. I had hoped that giving the enemy a limited chace to lock-on to the vortex would allow the system to be fairly self-diluting such that it would be less of a "combat" thing and more of a "this is how ships go through nebulae" thing but the poor old Orions are left with no option which is "unfun"...beyond optional mounts, heh heh.


Also, subvert...neutralise/mitigate/reduce...sheesh.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, September 06, 2005 - 11:31 am: Edit

Michael John Campbell:

I saw that it was for just a half turn, but if you have several ships involved in the action that limit becomes fairly meaningless. Also note that Lyran DNs have two probe launchers.

If you do not want to deal with the random facing of a nebula, just define the nebula as "quiet."

The random movement and direction changes are not (afterall) a result of 'navigation problems', but of turbulence within the nebula in any case, and no navigation aid is going to eliminate that problem.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, September 06, 2005 - 08:39 pm: Edit

Okay, I was under the impression that the cloud itself blocked line of sight to stars and thus navigation became harder but indeed since "quiet" nebulae do exist this would be wrong.

My intention was not to "force all nebulae battles to be in quite nebulae" but rather to "give the probe something else to do" ( something SVC has said he wished existed ).


I wonder if one could have a somewhat more noisey but not quite standard level of nebula, where only the direction change or random movement is applied.
Say:-
• Whispering:- Direction change only.
• Mubbling:- Random movement only.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, September 07, 2005 - 10:42 am: Edit

Michael John Campbell:

DO NOT MISQUOTE ME OR ANYONE ELSE. No one said "force all nebulae battles to be in quiet nebulae".

Nor has SVC said that he "wished probes had something else to do".

As to different kinds of nebulaes, feel free to talk your friends into what ever sort of nebulae special rule you want, but there is no reason or need for such a rule to be published.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, September 07, 2005 - 11:43 am: Edit

I don't remember saying such a thing but who knows what I mused on some day in the dim past. I cannot at at this time that there is any burning need for the probe to have someting else to do, but if one turned up, we might consider it.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, September 07, 2005 - 11:49 am: Edit

The Anti-neutrino anti-luminal probe. Creates a black hole in space but with no gravatational aspects. In fact, things move away from it or are damaged; 100 points minus range.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Wednesday, September 07, 2005 - 05:42 pm: Edit

Loren,

I was thinking that some type of temporal window could be created by a special probe through which an Andro ship can displace. They could displce to:
1. A Displacement Beacon (R10.56) in J2
2. An RTN node
3. A pre-ploted set of coordinates.

Why? The RTN is heavily disrupted by Y198. This would be a way to move off and onto an RTN that is set up so as to be much harder to find. The displacement could be sub-space or something and moves the Andro ship to another F&E hex. Call it escape by sub-space displacement. Such sub-space would be almost impossible to trace.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, September 07, 2005 - 08:47 pm: Edit

SPP:

I'm sorry if you saw my quotation marks as a quoting you. I used the quotation marks to group the concept together after I found that force-all-nebulae-battles-to-be-in-quiet-nebulae looked to messy and thus grouped them under quotation marks.
No attempt to quote you or anyone else. Sorry about any confussion.


As to quoting SVC, I recall reading it but can not find it now ( it must be CL 11 or 12 ) under the rejection of the idea of wild-probes. He is right in that there is no burning need for "something" at this instant, so I would hate to seem as though I were in anyway pressurising anything.