There MUST have been competing PF designs that were as not widely procured/ used for a variety of reasons.

For example, the Lyrans MIGHT have intially designed a PF with drones echoing their fighter usage (copied from the Klinks).

How much variation is possible?

For example, the Kzinti might have looked at an ALL DRONE design, dispensing with the phaser 1s.

The Roms might have tested a design with/ without a cloak (there police ship has no cloak).

The Tholians might have a conjectural PF with Particle Cannons.

Are any of these interesting? Viable? Already proposed?

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 12:36 pm: Edit

How many PFs do you want? Where would you draw the line?

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 12:54 pm: Edit

Conjectural or alternate versions would just be flavor.

Like the FFB vs DW design of the Feds.

It seems the Feds have infinite alternate designs... All I'd suggest that there should be SOME alternate designs.

Like a homegrown Gorn designed around a Gorn sized pilot (perhaps licensed from the Kzinti?)

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 12:59 pm: Edit

OOps, the above was to address another pet idea about fighters.

But I would draw the line at perhaps one or two "base" pf designs per race without all the variants the mainline PFs evolved into.

SO you might have a Klingon "Army" design that dispenses with the mechlinks for shipboard use. It is designed to operate from bases and planets only.


Probably only a couple designs ever were made in greater quantities than a couple squadrons for tests.

For that matter, would the Mantorese/ Cygnans be interested in a homegrown PF? The FEDS might have refused to even consider the idea, but given the fighter design and build facilities wouldn't they have even tried to build prototypes?

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 01:01 pm: Edit

Skolean PFs for the Feds!

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 01:06 pm: Edit

A Gorn PF adapted to the Photon? So the Feds could have 3 Photons? !!!

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 01:37 pm: Edit

The thing is, there are already several different weapons options for most races. The Kzinti have the Multi-Role Needle, which allows them to increase DF weapons at the expense of drones, or vice versa, relative to a standard Needle flotilla. Romulans have their Starhawk Modular PFs. Klingons have the G1 (2 ph-2s, 2 drone racks, 1 disr, a ADD), the G1B (no disr but 3 drone racks), the G1D (2 disr, 1 drone rack), and the G1P (4 phaser-2s, I don't recall whether the last "non-ADD weapon" is disr or drone). A standard Arachnid has 2 disr, 2 phaser-1s and 2 phaser-3s. But the Arachnid-P swaps out the disr and has 4 phaser-1s. And there's the Arachnid-W that trades the phaser-3s for web. I think most of the "plausible" alternate-weapon PFs have already been published.

The one alternate-weapon PF that hasn't been published that always seemed plausible (at least to me) is a "Bobcat-D". It's pretty obvious why the Lyrans wouldn't be very interested in drone racks on ships. But no PF carries an ESG, and a drone-armed Bobcat seems to me something the Lyrans probably would have at least experimented with.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 01:47 pm: Edit

Hence why the Needle and Starhawks were accepted.

Wouldn't the other races have looked at the idea? Even a prototype squadron?

The Klingon designs are more a matter of swapping out weapons on the base hull. Why not a base hull designed with the same basic phaser layout of the E4/F5?

Like I said in the first post, I am looking for proposals. I agree that a Lyran drone design (perhaps with D racks or ADD) for the Hydran front might be credible. Buy some type 1 or starfish drones and you can do a whole lot of good against a stinger swarm. plus, of course, you would also have a lot more "spare" power, depending on what gets swapped for the drone/ ADD racks.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 01:49 pm: Edit

I have submitted a Police PF for the Federation (shaped like a Police Cutter). Its gimick, besides the shape, is that it sacrifices a weapon for a transporter.

I Fed adapted Gorn PF would have one photon and two drones, not three photons. However, a modified Gorn PF (or even a stock Gorn PF) would make a great PF for the Skoleans.

Likewise, a modified (or even stock) Kzinti PF would be great for the Cygnans and Mantorese. Just swap out the disruptor for a photon and there you are.

Finally, I imagine the Fed police might operate more than a few Buccaneers. Just rip out the "engine doubling" stuff and replace the tractor with a transporter, and you have a perfect little police PF.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 01:56 pm: Edit

Thats exactly what I was wanting to discuss.

A police PF would use PF tech on the Security Skiff role. So perhaps it swaps some engine power for a tractor and transporter. Plus an extra couple BPs. NO ABILIY to be toted on mechlinks would stop 90% of the abuses.

By Dave Butler (Dcbutler) on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 02:09 pm: Edit

Might be fun to see what a Klink PF loosely based on the E5 design looked like. 'Course, a single six-box CWarp engine is probably a non-starter for a PF, but still.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 02:20 pm: Edit

The Tholian partisan in me drools (umm... how does a creature with a body temperature of about 400° drool exactly?) at the thought Arachnids that replace the disruptors with FA photon torpedos (and the APR with AWR). But the fan of game balance within me thinks that would be abusive.

The problem is that web casters allow the Tholians to "shape" the battlefield more effectively than the Federation can. They have much better capability to control the range of engagements, and also to protect photon-armed units on the reload turns. So much as part of me would love to have photon-armed Arachnids, I find myself forced to "Just Say No".

By Michael Powers (Mtpowers) on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 03:05 pm: Edit

Oog...a PF with only Center Warp would die after a single hit.

A Police PF that can't be carried on mech-links? Congratulations, you've invented the Security Skiff.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 03:13 pm: Edit

A Skolean PF?

What would they use as the basic hull of the design? a Gorn Pterosaur interceptor? A Replace the Plasma F torpedos for a pair of photons?
Pterodactyl PF? Replace the Plasma F torpedos for 4 photons?!?!?!?

That would be a lot different from the conjectural Thunderbolt PF's or the mustang interceptors.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 03:50 pm: Edit

Alan,

Nah. Photons are fine. If you really want to be abusive, replace the disruptors with Pl-F.

Michael,

Just for the record, I want to keep the opportunity for abuse open. Ergo, none of my suggests have prohibitions against mech links.

And, no. Even if a "police PF" didn't have the ability to use mech links, it would still be far, far better than any security skiff that has even been thought of. Seriously, that isn't even a valid comparison.

Jeff,

No, the weapons would have to be rearranged to allow for a single photon and a couple of drone racks. On the other hand, these are Skoleans, and they are very familiar with plasmas and plasma tactics. Maybe they just use stock Gorn PFs ...

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 03:56 pm: Edit

Skolean PFs? Why would Skoleans have PFs at all? They're part of the Federation, which doesn't use PFs. But if the Feds did use PFs the Skoleans would use Fed PFs.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 04:22 pm: Edit

Oh, come on, it was a joke. MichaelG suggested Cygnan/Mantorees. Skoleans are just as "important" as Mantoreesers.

I for one think the Skoleans would use a Pter w/ LS+RS P-1s, FX P-1 replaced witha Photon. Plasmas w/ 2Drone-As and LS+RS P-3s.

2 P1s, 2 DroneAs (or Plasma-D racks), Photon, 2P3s. Not bad compared to the Thunderbolt PF.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 05:50 pm: Edit

Is it possible that the Skoleans would purchase Gorn style PF's for local planetary defense?

Is the Gorn option more reasonable to assume than Skolean produced Fed Conjectural Thunderbolt PF's?

Is it possible that some of the Gorn PF squadrons are actually Skolean Mercenaries fighting under contract for the Gorns?

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 06:03 pm: Edit

Jeff,

I wouldn't think it's reasonable for the Skoleans to have PFs at all. Their local defense stuff would be far more likely to be Federation equipment. And unlike the Cygnans, the Skoleans simply aren't rich enough or important enough to have their "own line" of stuff.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 06:10 pm: Edit

Guys, come on. It is completely "unreasonable" that any Federation member world would have PFs. They would never do that. They would just use available Federation technology and call it a day. The Cygnans would never bother with PFs, since we already know they proudly used their own fighters, then changed over to standard Federation technology.

However, I didn't think that was the point of this topic. What is "reasonable" has already been published. In order to get anywhere on the stated goal of this topic, you pretty much have to be "unreasonable" right from the get-go and wander into conjecture.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 06:17 pm: Edit

Alan,

I hear what you are saying... but if the Skoleans are "contracting out" fighter pilots to the Gorn military... it would seem reasonable that the Gorns might want to offset part of the cash they pay in the form of "in kind" trade... anything that the Gorns produce that the Skoleans might want/need for planetary defense.

(Just thinking out loud, for a moment) if the Gorns offered a discount on planetary defense ground bases, say plasma types the Skoleans might figure that the gain better defenses than what they could afford to pay the greedy fed merchants/politicians would charge.

The Gorns dont produce fighters (other than licensed built Fed designs), have limited Bomber production (added to still more Fed licensed Bomber designs) and the offer inteceptors and PFs.

If the Skoleans acted as agents for the Gorns to sell PF's to Federation member worlds (for a hefty commission! you might see some planets elect to use PF's for limited defense roles knowing that no federation flag officer will commandeer the PF's since the Federation doesnt use such... fighters, however could be flown onto a carrier short of its fighter group "in an emergencey" and it might be weeks or months before replacements can be brought in.

I could see a couple of advantages for Feds having local PF's available.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 07:08 pm: Edit

I can see the Skoleans having a squadron or two of Gorn fighters. For training purposes, but useful in a fight. I don't think Skoleans crewed Gorn PFs since PFs were big enough for the Gorns to crew themselves.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 10:35 pm: Edit

If you are keen to see new PFs, you could always buy the new Omega module on the way this year...


Gary

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 10:42 pm: Edit

While on the surface it would be reasonable for the Skoleans to use, say, G-20s and G-8s for planetary defense (since they should be easy to get from the Gorns), I still don't buy it.

Skoleos (or whatever their planet is named) is integrated into the Federation economy and support structure. While they might think it is cool to have those G-20s and G-8s, the infrastructure they are part of just cannot support that. Consequently, they use standard Federation fighters like all of the other Federation associate member worlds.

Seriously, I don't see how this could even be a real possibility.

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 10:54 pm: Edit

I figure the Skoleans would use F-15/16's and bombers just like all the other Fed system defense groups.....