Gary, you are the Omega Man.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Thursday, June 21, 2007 - 09:11 am: Edit

I appreciate the comments.

1) I think the Skoleans MIGHT have some PFs, as trainers if nothing else. You have to figure that if there are LOTS of Skoleans going to and from Gorn space that there might be some "in kind" payments of tech or hardware.

2) As for the Cygnans and Mantorese, I think that perhaps they THOUGHT about producing PFs. A conjectural or limited production PF might be similar to a needle or interceptor.

3) And for other races? A dedicated anti fighter/ drone version for the Kzinti? Or the Lyrans? I don't think we have hit all the bases yet.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Thursday, June 21, 2007 - 10:58 am: Edit

Even if the Skoleans did have PFs, which I doubt, what affect does this have on the game? Its not like the Skoleans will be sending their few PFs to the Klingon front. They should be local defense/training units that only get play time if someone were to attack Skolea. I'm not understanding where you are trying to get to, but if you are thinking of giving the Feds access to Gorn PFs with a Skolean back story making it quasi-historical then I think you are barking up the wrong tree.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Thursday, June 21, 2007 - 11:27 am: Edit

NOT the Feds. But I think that a COUPLE special cases MIGHT have local defense PFs.

More to the point, I think there is room for alternate designs for the other races. So the Lyrans never looked at a trimaran PF with 3 2 box engines? I KNOW about the "heavy pfs", what I am discussing is an ALTERNATE PF to the regular class.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Thursday, June 21, 2007 - 11:31 am: Edit

Hydrans special:

1) a design with ONE fusion and 2 fighter mech links?
2) a design midway between a howler (not produced much for some reason) and a hellion?
2) A hellbore version with a BIT more range (perhaps swapping out a P2 for a P3) for more standoff firing ability?

Again, I think we are limiting ourselves too much with "each race made one design" (except for the Roms and Kzin). FOr that matter the Kzinti is really not so much a new design as an alternate set of wings...

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Thursday, June 21, 2007 - 11:37 am: Edit

For that matter, could local National Guard units in the Federation buy Orion PFs? Why not?

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Thursday, June 21, 2007 - 11:39 am: Edit

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Thursday, June 21, 2007 - 01:00 pm: Edit

PFs wear out quickly. Planets should get plenty of PFs and INT past their half-life directly from the fleet. There shouldn't be much need for someone to design and build a local defense version.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Thursday, June 21, 2007 - 01:09 pm: Edit

Michael,

You are running in a few problems that are hard to overcome.

The first is that simple cosmetic differences are irrelevant. So, whether the Lyran PF has two hull sticks or three hull sticks, if the boxes are the same, who cares?

Second, most races already have the reasonable weapons mixes published. If a mix isn't available, either it doesn't work (most likely) or works TOO well. Those Hydran PFs you mention likely fall into the first catagory. (Well, the second "2" makes no sense; I refer to the first two.)

Third, the Federation does not use PFs. This means Star Fleet doesn't use PFs. The Police Force doesn't use PFs. The National Guard doesn't use PFs. Individual planets don't use PFs. "The Federation doesn't use PFs" means "The Federation doesn't use PFs".

So, unless you can introduce a PF into an existing race that adds an interesting tactical dynamic, you are forced to wander in "conjectural space". Quite frankly, that is where I thought you had wanted to go, and the spirit in which my initial suggestions were made.

The only suggestion in this whole topic so far that could maybe be "real" is photons on Arachnids. (But I doubt it.) Outside that, everything has been pure conjectural fodder.

Either we can have fun with different ideas so we can compare and discuss our different visions of "reasonable", or we can seriously consider the issue. Doing the latter makes for a much, much shorter and more limited discussion.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Thursday, June 21, 2007 - 02:54 pm: Edit

It would not be unreasonable to assume that a module K2 might be considered some day. This may just be an idea before its time.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Thursday, June 21, 2007 - 02:56 pm: Edit

Maybe.

But if there is to ever be a K2 (which, BTW, I have never really seen the Steves give much endorsement), it will still need to overcome the problems I mention above.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, June 21, 2007 - 03:42 pm: Edit

Loren:


I don't know about that, but coming from the M81 Man, that's a compliment!


The point about the Omega PFs is still valid, though - there are dozens of new designs which need to be worked on right now over at the Omega 5 thread, and they would do with more feedback.

(And for Alpha fans, there will be conjectural FRA gunboats on the table, as well as the historical ships used by their neighbours...)


Gary

By Nikolaus Athas (Nycathis) on Friday, June 22, 2007 - 02:27 am: Edit

Hey I like the idea of alternate PF designs!

Here are a few Conjectural ideas of my own:

Lyran Trimaran design complete with ESG?

Romulan Mauler PF?

Kzinti Scout/Drone PF?

Gorn Battle PF with rear bubble?

Hydran 'Lord' series Mixed weapon PF leader?

Neo Tholian Webcasting PF with seperatable command Module?

ISC Star PF with PPD and rearwards firing Plas Fs?

and of course who could POSSIBLY resist the piece de resistance:

The Klingon B-2 PF
Take a G1 Command PF and attach it to the seperated rear hull of an E4 (well the Klingons HAD to find another use for those old E4s apart from selling them to the Romulans)...

Oh? whats that? You want to show me to my room? Why its very, small almost like a booth ......

AHHHHHHHH its on William Shatner sings Lucy in the Sky setting!!!

By Ken Humpherys (Pmthecat) on Friday, June 22, 2007 - 12:14 pm: Edit

Problem with trimaran Lyran PF's:
Lyrans would have noted that triple engines are less durable (read: get hit more) in combat than dual engines. Lyran PF's are already power hungry and the lightest frames in the game. Kzinti's may use a triple engine PF, but they have drones. These allow stand-off fighting and less power use.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Friday, June 22, 2007 - 12:39 pm: Edit

Ken, I am not sure I agree with your analysis of PF engine durability.

Sure, you have an increased chance of losing an entire engine to a singel hit, but you have 3 engines to be hit. I don't really have the math to do the statistics, but I SUSPECT (and may well be wrong) that 3 hits on 3 engines would AVERAGE leaving more engine boxes than 3 hits on 2 engines...

I'll try to do some rough analysis, but I don't swear by the numbers I produce.

By Joseph Riggs (Junior) on Friday, June 22, 2007 - 12:54 pm: Edit

Hydrans use triple engines on their PFs. And no one ever accused THEM of using stand-off tactics...

:P

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, June 22, 2007 - 02:15 pm: Edit

With the likes of PPDs and web casters, there are already limits on which size classes of regular starships are seen to carry them - how will they fit onto a PF?


Gary

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, June 22, 2007 - 02:29 pm: Edit

Gary,

I had assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that Nikolaus Athas meant his post as a joke. ESGs and web casters are specifically excluded by the rules from being in anything that small. I don't recall a specific prohibition against PPDs. But since no ISC warship (at least as far as I can recall) smaller than a cruiser carries one, I think we are safe in regarding this as a de facto prohibition.

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Friday, June 22, 2007 - 02:45 pm: Edit

I'm still waiting for PF maulers.

With stasis.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Friday, June 22, 2007 - 03:15 pm: Edit

Stasis PFs, yum.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, June 22, 2007 - 03:20 pm: Edit

Heck with it. From now on, all my PFs have an R-torp and 2 phaser-4s.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, June 22, 2007 - 03:22 pm: Edit

Alan,

I guess I noted it because a similar suggestion propped up in the Omega Gunboats topic not so long ago about giving a conjectural FRA PF a heavy photon - when only SC2 or larger ships can mount them!


Gary

By Simon Robinson (Loki) on Friday, June 22, 2007 - 06:12 pm: Edit

How about -

Deathrider Mauler PF - basically a mauler with engines battteries and shields, it seeks its target and at a range of 2 destroys itself in a contolled cascading exposion which it focuses into the mauler and at the target?

No?

For simualtor use only?

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Friday, June 22, 2007 - 07:27 pm: Edit

..then people will want to do the same thing with suicide freighters...

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Friday, June 22, 2007 - 07:31 pm: Edit

I have nightmares that if they ever do K2, they'll include 'remote-control' rules for PF's ala J2......

*shudders*

No more addenda, my butt....